Blessings be bestowed upon us.
I was told by a German person on this very site that they’d never go right wing again because of a unique type of centrism in the country that’s hugely popular and that my tiny American brain couldn’t comprehend. Oh well, guess that’s just another common centrist L.
To be fair, Germany is still far better off than the US or some other European countries. In the national election that just happened, the far right party won about 20% of the votes and the (traditionally) centre-right party won while moving further to the right. That said they’re still about as far right as the Democrats in the US.
It’s just that Germans are on alert about the rise of fascism and are raising the alarm bells now, before the fascist actually take over control.
in fairness, Germany’s right-wing CSU/CDU could just as easily form a coalition with AFD. It is unique that they’re still willing to stand by their principles and work to cut AFD out of the government, going as far as threatening a ban. The American Republican Party jumped into bed with the fascist Tea Party immediately, without hesitation, and rode the Trump train.
I still don’t expect the new centrist coalition to materially address the underlying economic concerns that are driving AFD support, and it seems likely that they’ll be too big to ignore by the next election. A future centrist L, if you were.
“Centrists stand for the status quo, they would never change for the worse.”
“What if the worse is the status quo and normalized with decades of propaganda and brainwashing?”
“That could never happen!”
Average centrist L.
I don’t want to start a war or anything but as someone from neither the USA or Europe, Europeans online often come across as even more exceptionalist than Americans, despite the reputation to the contrary. Because, at least in leftish or liberal spaces, no one is more ready to shit on and call out the USA than Americans. And I don’t mean they’re anti-American or whatever, they just want their country to be better, so they call out all the shit.
Europeans on the other hand often seem more proud and / or defensive about their countries. Maybe they speak openly in their own country specific communities but I don’t get the sense that they’re as open and friendly to outside input or criticism as the Americans are.
The way I see it, we’re all hooked onto the same stream of memes and billionaire owned news sources everywhere across the world. So thinking we’re immune to being overtaken by dangerous alt right nonsense and ignoring all the obvious signs would be a very stupid move, wherever you are. If they’re not taking this seriously, they’re doing exactly what the Americans did and have done since 2016.
I have no idea how this can be possible, but europeans are proud of their roots AND want their countries to be better. And there are defensive people AND people openly shitting on their countries.
As if they see both sides of the coin. Or! OR it depends who you talk to!
I am getting a feeling that countries are more than a single person. And Europe, might be more than one country. Just like China has provinces/states. And USA.
Yeah that’s fair enough and I’m definitely generalizing. It’s just the general sum of my personal observations over the years. And it could easily be just seeing the wrong conversations in the wrong places or whatever. To be fair, you seem to hear about US issues a lot more than European issues on the net in general anyway.
Whoever told you that was the one with the tiny brain. This is fucking scary and we have had warning signs for decades. /a German
Centrism is just seeing an elephant about to step on a mouse and trying to make a compromise.
Just cause usa is fucked up completely doesn’t mean every other country is. left, centrist and right in most of europe would be categorized as “socialist terrorist group” in the usa.
Name a three countries that aren’t fucked.
The vatican city state, san marino, malta, Sealand
Switzerland, Finland, Australia.
Lmao you think Finland is doing well?
I get it, everythin is bad cause your standard for success is impossibly high. Congrats you won internet argument and are most humanitarian or whatever.
My standards for success are simply not having fascists in the government. And my point is, even though we definitely are doing better, fascism is on rise everywhere. What happens in America never stays in America, and in the end, we all get fucked even if some get more fucked than others. Have a good day.
Friendlyjordies house getting fire bombed for going after politician would tell me that Australia is fucked.
to be fair, this is the image the center parties have and upkeep. I, as a farly left person, already question if this seperation to right extremism will still be upheld in 4 years. Our Center-right partie CDU falls more and more for populist rethoric, which reminds me of the republicans or the toris.
So what you have been told is not wrong per se. But there is a significant amount of people in the country and politicans in the parlaiment, that argue the seperation between right exremism and center parties did already collaps behind the scenes.
Third time’s a charm!
Germany was never truly de-Nazified.
While this is absolutely true, I dont think, that this is the cause of the current uprise of facism.
Fascism is generally Capitalism’s immune system as it declines, meant to violently root out leftist opposition as workers begin to protest their conditions.
I’m stealing that analogy, thank you very much.
I’d generalize it a bit to say, fascism is the immune system of any system built on bad principles that’s collapsing under the weight of its own internal contradictions. The obvious decay then creates a space psychos and grifters to pose as faux saviors and gain power by scamming people into something they pretend is a solution but is actually a death cult.
I think that’s unique analysis, for sure, but I’d keep it to Capitalism. Historical movements recognized as fascist, such as Italian Fascism and Nazi Germany, arose specifically in decaying Capitalist economies where a millitant working class was growing, and the fascists slaughteted the Communists and Socialists. I recommend reading the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds (though the whole book is fantastic).
This is absolutely true
Just like in russia, since 90s where turbo capitalism took over.
Quick! Avert eyes! Deploy pivot arguments! Dont ever discuss this!
Seeing as some left to Argentina or were recruited by the US and the USSR for NASA, no they never were de-Nazified, they just wiped the blood off their name tags.
Yep, prominent Nazis were even given leadership of NATO, such as Adolf Heusinger. The Soviets ended up being far harsher to the Nazis, hence why so many fled to Latin America to get away. Makes sense, considering the absolute devastation the Nazis wrought on the Soviets and the 20 million Soviet lives the Nazis took, and how comparatively little the US saw, as the 2 major powers emerging from World War II.
“No you can’t bring up that NATO had actual Nazis with blood on their hands as leaders! Especially ones that tried to make a new Waffen-SS in the 50s! That’s unfair!”
Ah yes. The fallacy that europe rejects all media pointing to nazis being reintegrated into western structures.
Completely niche idea that never seeped into the pop culture. The evil Nazi living in the west.
Westerners just stick fingers into their ears and shout lalala each time they see this.
Keep jerking yourself off with these arguments.
Yep, people love to reflexively defend NATO, as it’s very effectively pitched as merely a “defensive alliance” when it has always served as a coercive arm for the US to pressure its geopolitical adversaries, especially the Soviets, hence why they worked with the most effective anticommunists, the Nazis. If you don’t play along with NATO, then they pull Operation Gladio on you.
And russian bots love to attack NATO because it prevents their dictator putin from conquering all previous USSR territories that became sovereign nations.
NATO wouldn’t be necessary if Russia stopped invading other countries. So you can blame putin for that.
That’s the thing: you can’t kill an idea by killing the man. The idea only dies with good education, proper social support, social cohesion and good (economic) prospects for the future. Same goes for Hamas IMO: try to kill as many soldiers as you can, the collateral damage among civilians breeds only the next soldier in line
When are you moving to russia? It is one of the most denazified countries in the world right now, after all.
Surely they don’t have a Neo-Nazi party office right now, right? No party called the AfD that does that?
Surely.
Yes. The exact same that cozies up to russia and praises United Russia politics.
The same one.
Avert your eyes to all evidence of taking russian blood money as well.
Deploy another argument!
So AfD is a good party that isn’t practicing the xenophobic and hateful policies of Neo-Nazis? Musk doesn’t love them?
It is neo nazi party.
So is United russia.
Trump and Musk love both.
Just like AFD loves russia.
Ha good joke
Fascism is really good for the rich to get richer
Especially the AfDs Neo-Liberal fascism ^^
Wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to our beloved overlords. 💰OTL
There are more fucking neo-Nazis in the USA than in Germany. The shit AfD voters come from the Oklahoma and Mississippi of Germany, Thuringia and Saxony.
Definitely not true. It sounds like you are German and if so it is pretty sad how little you keep up with your own election even though it happened just a few days ago. There are more AfD voters in eastern Germany but most Bundesländer have >18% AfD votes.
People tend to forget that Hitlers NSDAP only needed 18% in 1930 and a rigged election in 1933 to completely take over the country.
Coping doesnt get us anywhere. Its not always “the others” that vote far-right. Its the whole country, the educated just as well as the uneducated, the poor and the rich. Almost everyone has family members or friends that vote far-right and we need to talk to them, try to understand their motives and make them understand that AfD wants to make everything they fear 10 times worse.Almost everyone has family members or friends that vote far-right and we need to talk to them
I try. My family calls themselves left of center and liberal, yet no books on Marx but certainly have books on Hitler. My brother who works in finance lauds great mathematicians in history, but he won’t read about Einstein’s politics because I smoke weed therefore my recommendation is “hard to take seriously.” They think the rise of fascism is just media sensationalism, and things are better than ever because “the markets say so / GDP is higher than ever.” I try to explain, through the words of economists, that GDP and markets aren’t a good measure of wealth disparity, and they accuse me of being envious that I don’t have as much money as them. I try to explain that money isn’t everything, they roll their eyes like i’m on some hippy-revolutionary kool aid and no different from MAGA. They say I should stop worrying about “the news” and “focus on yourself,” meanwhile i’m disabled from hyperthyroidism and they roll their eyes at my pain and immobility like i’m being lazy. They don’t read anything, they’ll be the first to admit they choose to stay away from politics, while simultaneously acting like they have the most informed and balanced perspective. Fuck “enlightened centrists” they walk and talk just like fascists do.
Yes however today there aren’t tools available anymore that hitler had to make this happen. Our constitution is now far better protected and isn’t as easily dismantled as the Weimar republic’s constitution. Still sucks that so many people voted for afd though
I heard that argument often, and it’s true that the same way and same “we essentially keep the old constitution alive completely and change laws in ways that were technically legal” as back then won’t work.
However, fascism - also in the 1930s already - also has strategies like: “Just doing illegal things and overstepping what your posts are allowed to do, knowing you can only be stopped by force, even if judges and your superiors disagree.” That one was a massive part of how Hitler quickly outmanoeuvred von Papen, even though Papen was chancellor and Hitler “just” vice chancellor. The NSDAP-adjacent ministers, police chiefs, judges, etc. simply did not report to Papen, no matter what the law and constitution said.
What I am getting at: One should never think the laws on paper are some kind of shield and holy fact, only the laws as the executive (cops and courts, essentially) protects and enacts are what really matters, and those are corruptible, no matter how good the constitution is. (Another often quoted example: The constitution of North Korea also guarantees a lot of freedoms and rights, but no one would say, that protects the people there.)
Its better than back then, yes. But you cant know what kind of tricks they would use nowadays before it happens. Look at the US, Trump is doing whatever he wants no matter if its illegal. As long as hes not stopped by force, he will continue doing so.
Yeah, sorry, but that is like looking at the map in 1930 from these ones and saying “the NSDAP voters come from East Prussia only, don’t complain about the Nazis in Germany!”
The shit AfD voters come from the Oklahoma and Mississippi of Germany, Thuringia and Saxony.
That’s only kinda true. The east has way more Nazis, but just because the AfD is stronger there with 32% of the votes, doesn’t change the fact that 18% of West German voters voted for them too.
Is that per capita?
Both countries are full of neo nazi.
Sadly true. Fuck the CDU and AfD. Nazi helpers and Nazis.
Did they make a coalition with the new nazi party?
Even if they don´t officially, they might just push through all the right wing policies with the votes of AfD.
The next weeks and months will show.
Ok because the last I saw, there was a “firewall” to stop any coalitions with them.
Personally, I don’t think even Merz is at the point just yet to outright create a coalition with them. However, that they did push a directive and try to push an actual law through parliament with AfD votes already is a sign of the direction things may end up going. Who knows, in a few months or years, there might just end up something happening like trouble in the most likely coming coalition of CDU/SPD, where the CDU just says they “had no choice” but to introduce a proto-fascist law that they and the AfD support, but the actual ruling coalition did not, resulting in legitimising them more and paving the way for an actual coalition.
I hate to say it, but i expect your prediction is what is going to happen.
Not yet, we will see in a few weeks
SPD and Grüne are helping the rise of fascism too even if it’s not on purpose. Die Linke are the only ones in parliament actually working against it.
Wanting to leave NATO, withholding weapons from Ukraine and talking to Putin isn’t exactly “working against” fascism. That’s very much the Neville Chamberlain approach … but even he came to his sense after the full scale invasion started. Can’t say the same for die Linke.
That’s very much the Neville Chamberlain approach …
That’s such revisionist history. Chamberlain wasn’t appeasing Germany, he was aligning with Germany against Communist Russia.
He wasn’t surrendering, he was allying with fascism.
Source?
That seems even more revisionist. If anything I’d have expected it from Winston “I believe in Aryan race science” Churchill.
Chamberlain was buying time for rearmament. It wasn’t actually necessary and it was, in fact, pretty fucking stupid because Germany was rearming faster than France and Britain put together, and his betrayal of Czechoslovakia with their fortified border was even more galling in face of it, but the idea wasn’t to ally with Germany as far as I’ve seen anyone claim.
The British spent the entire 1930s claiming that Britain and Nazi Germany will be a bulwark against communism and signed three pacts with Hitler which were all directly against the Soviet Union: the Four Powers Pact meant to exclude and isolate the Soviets, the Naval Agreement meant Germany could have a navy up 35% of the British navy meaning it wouldn’t threaten British empire but every country on the Baltic sea… i.e. the Soviet Union, and finally the Munich Betrayal which was understood to be a gesture of a “free hand” (British diplomat’s words not mine) for Hitler to go east.
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax and other members of the British Government were fully aware that the Fuhrer had not only achieved a great deal inside Germany herself, but that, by destroying Communism in his country, he had barred its road to Western Europe, and that Germany therefore could rightly be regarded as a bulwark of the West against Bolshevism
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax recognized that the Chancellor had not only performed great services in Germany, but also, as he would no doubt feel, had been able by preventing the entry of Communism into his own country, to bar Its passage further West. The Prime Minister held the view that it should be possible to find a solution of out differences by an open exchange of views
When the Soviets liberated Germany they were able to get a huge cache of British diplomatic documents. The Soviets released the above book and Documents And Materials Relating To The Eve Of The Second World War Vol. 2 full to the brim of diplomats praising Nazi Germany as a twin pillar alongside Britain stopping communism.
NATO is a fascist organisation.
You Germs should know that since they incorporated plenty nazis in the organisation.https://www.dispropaganda.com/single-post/2019/04/04/natos-secret-nazi-past
So did the warsaw packt and russia today even has them lead armys again. Your point?
While not fully denazifying west germany didnt hide their identities and they were out right critisised. Especially when a former office nazi got elected chanclor (Kurt Kissinger). He even got hit and boohed in public. Behind the iron curtain they outright hid the nazis. Hired SS and Gestapo for the Stasi (unlike the west).
I am comparing it because i know thats where you are going with your argument
While the Warhaw pact did have their own limited project paperclip it is a fact it was the west that fully incorporated the nazis into their regime.
The point being they both were anti-communist.
The west also helped escape 1000’s of the worst SS nazi warcriminals (ukranians) and relocated them to Canada.
What was their use?
There is zero equivalence and you can’t find more than some cherrypicked examples.
To the Russians some could be used but were their enemies, unlike the west where they had plenty of fascist sympathisers in Europe or N America.
https://ebeggin.substack.com/p/ratlines-nato-and-the-fourth-reich“and russia today even has them lead armys again”
LOL is that your claim? Let me say it for you, Ill cherrypick Dimitry Utkin for you bcs because i know where you are going with your argument. A guy from a private militia who is in no way part of the Russian army, as events later made abundantly clear.
You can find individual nazis in almost every country.
Guess who those Russian nazis are fighting for?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/04/russian-neo-nazi-hooligan-who-led-anti-putin-militia-across/Ukraine has multible openly fascist batalions like Azov, Sich, Tornado and plenty more.
Where WW2 warcriminals are honored, etc…And let’s not forget how the west now whitewashes the horrible Navalny, who organised the Russian marches before they were forbidden, a racist making videos of him shooting muslims that he called cockroaches.
A disgusting criminal sold by the west as some brave hero fighting for democracy.
As riculous as saying Azov are totally not nazis anymore bcs they changed their logo.
If only Hitler would’ve done something to his swastika, he could’ve been a brave anti-commie fighter hero.You haven’t got a leg to stand on.
Don’t care, I’d rather live under the neolib European governments any day than a fascist Russian shithole. It’s not even a difficult choice. It’s not like there’s some leftist utopia as an alternative. The neolibs don’t murder gay people and don’t decriminalize violence against women as a state policy.
Don’t care, I’d rather live under the neolib European governments any day than a fascist Russian shithole.
I’ve got some horrible news for you.
The neolibs don’t murder gay people and don’t decriminalize violence against women as a state policy. LOL where do you get your news from?
That’s the fascist Banderites you support.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/03/ukraine-activists-at-womens-solidarity-event-must-be-protected-from-attacks/Don’t try to deflect, you’re fine with Russia murdering gay people.
Weak.
You’re deflecting when called out on your BS, prove your “Russia murdering gay people” lies
Isn’t Amnesty an evil neoliberal org? Or are you a weird kind of tankie that doesn’t really have issue with it?
Regardless of that, it’s just like saying “Palestine deserved it” because Hamas and radical Islam.
I’m not going to react, your nonsense from your response says enough.
I’ll take government failures to control their pigs over actually siccing the murder pigs on the protestors.
I’m sure you can post proof of the government murdering womens marches, let’s see it
Campists these days are so funny, because now they’re getting all their opinions from the US state department.
Without NATO, we’re going back into the age of territorial conquests and nationalist revenge campaigns. Russia and China aren’t the only countries where this crap is normalized (see Hungary - lot of my fellow Hungarians thinks Slovaks are just Hungarians forced to take up a Slavic language, and in reality they’re just a lost tribe of Magyars called “the Tóths”).
NATO is territorial conquest by the US.
Europe are just vasals.Name one agressive expansion of territory by nato.
And no. The former occupied eastern europe countrys joining nato is not military expansion. They wanted to join and are still indipendent in everything they do
What do you consider 'expansion of territory '?
That is an outdated concept.
The US has used NATO to attack and control other countries without ‘expansion’. That would be to obvious colonialism. They “intervene” (mass murder and destroy the brow people countries) then install their puppet like in Afghanistan.
They use more sneaky regime change tactics in Europe.
Ukraine was a good example, with the Nuland-Pyatt call telling them who should be president. (And “fuck the EU” OC)
in Georgia they sure tried but failed.
They are ‘bodybags’ combined with NATO weapons as Soros said in '93 explaining how NATO could destroy Russia (so peaceful). And no, there is no context.
But if they have to they blatantly bomb cities and an embassy like Yugoslavia.
The US blew up our Nordstream pipeline forcing us to buy their expensive gas and destroying our economy.
Not one peep from our bootlicking EU leaders.
That sure sounds like we’re independent.
And now the poodles complain they don’t get respect? LOL
Ok Tankie.
shouldn’t you be beating up anti-genocide protesters while doing the Musk salute?
A tankie on .world? Funny
We’re having all the fun ridiculing all the fash and the lib enablers.
NATO is liberal and that comes with all of the problems of liberals but in what ways has it functioned as a fascist organisation?
This is another example of Schrödinger’s NATO, where actions perpetrated by the USA is blamed on the entire organisation, yet NATO is a symbol of Western imperialism.
Which is it? If all of NATO but the USA want one thing, and the USA overthrows your government, is it NATO’s fault or rather the USA’s? Are tankies blaming Iraq on NATO too?
" if all of NATO but the USA want one thing"
What are you talking about.
NATO IS the USA, they decide and nobody else.
The vasals will pay for it, provide assistance and get to take care of the millions of refugees caused by it while the US plunders the poor victim of the day’s oil and resources.
If you don’t get that then it’s hopeless.
Had to protect the surplus profits of Capitalism at all costs. A century of wealth needed to be consolidated in the hands of the ubermensch. You know, Mohammed Bin Salmen and Amancio Ortega and Elon Musk.
Bold statement. Do you have any examples? I would disagree, but maybe I just don’t quite understand what you meant.
SPD is just standing by not doing anything (except being corrupt), basically silent complicity. The greens are also not clearly positioning themselves against the anti immigrant hatred, but they are still doing much better than the rest imo.
I agree with you on the SPD, but Habeck was pretty fucking clear that Abschiebung is not the way to go. The Linke on the other hand seems great until you see their position on NATO, rearmament, Russia, and Ukraine…
My dad literally voted for Volt instead of Grüne because “the Grüne was to positive about immigration”
Correctly but, me who is supporting both volt and grüne and even is joining volt in summer, but with volts goal of a united europe,…that seems pretty pro immigration. Not to mention also them wanting easier immigration.
Does your dad know something i dont?
It’s just stigma against the Grüne; hypocrisy at its purest. In other words: I don’t think he actually cares about immigration, he was just using it as a scapegoat.
I see peoples issues with the linke as largely unimportant. Having 9% of the seats taken by nato critical people is a healthy contra to the overwhelming majority that would never dare to criticize their sometimes criticism worthy decisions. If you never have anyone looking at things from an outside perspective the governement will lose touch with reality.
Fair enough. While I myself wouldn’t vote for them, I do agree that they are by no means evil. Their position certainly may even be valuable, I concede. I don’t want my preferred party (the Grüne) to be the most radical left party, it’s always good to have an even more left party to balance things out. We don’t want to end up like the US, where even moderate things like universal healthcare are viewed as radical in the state. Democracy serves it’s purpose. In other words: you’ve pretty much convinced me (though I would still vote Grüne).
What should the SPD be doing?
Behave like social democrats, push to fund infrastructure and school upgrades (instead of defunding them), not have a leading candidate that was involved with the biggest tax fraud scheme in recent history, etc
I nisunderstood, I thought you were calling them to do something about AfD more directly.
Not on purpose?
That Baerbock is a horrible warmongerConsidering that Putin is the biggest fascist threat for all of Europe, your statement is laughable. The Left agree that Putin is doing bad things in Ukraine and other countries but their message is that the domestic social net is more important than Europe’s survival and all weapon deliveries must stop. Let’s talk instead.
If policies were up to them, they’d be helping fascism almost as much as outright Putin sheep
It is so fucking sad that the tolerance “paradox” goes all the way to fucking war.
Like you literally have to fight a war against war seekers if you don’t want war. Like fucking hell, why can’t we at least be chill there?
De-Nazification never happened.
“At least we’re not as racist as the US!”
“…yet.”
But we are working on yourself to catch up with the US.
Sorry - is the Reese’s mug a reference to something I should know about?
Former FCC chairman and piece of shit, Ajit Pai used to have a cartoonishly large Reese’s mug. Could be an old picture and all of the text has been changed.
CEO
of racismMeanwhile on Ich
eiliel:So many people have this misreading: it’s ich_iel (im echten Leben, in reallife) not eil
I thought it looked weird. Thanks friend!
Are we subscribed to the same sub. Dach talks about literally nothing else but politics right now so don’t tell me ich_iel only having like 1/3rd political posts today is some kind of smoking gun.
Once upon a time, I told a German that if their country goes fascist, we won’t spare them a second time. That was wrong and naive of me to say, but not too far off. There won’t be a rebuilding if that happens.
Oh Im pretty sure we will be spared by the country that went full fascist just a few weeks ago. Thats definitely not the part Im worried about.
Only problem is that the entire worlds governments are going fascist. There won’t be anyone with enough power to fight them.
WW3 won’t be a nuclear war between States. WW3 will be a global class uprising, I just fear we’ll have to go through 100+ years of ‘Equilibrium’ or ‘V for Vendetta’ type dystopia before that happens. Why does that have to be the sensible approach? Why not rip off the bandaids now while billionaires addresses are still public information?
deleted by creator
Calm your bloated tits! How about addressing the fascism in your own country first?
Don’t worry, we are adressing it as we speak. Let’s just say my country is also close enough to Germany to adress it as well.
Man, the size of brains of people calling someone racist just because they vote right, completely unaware of their own contribution in this matter. Guess, anyone who doesn’t vote right is antifa
If you vote for racists, then you are racist. It’s as simple as that.
Hi german here, the AfD is judicialy allowed to be called a Faschist party :) And are racist and their votes are too
Plus many CDU/CSU voters and members are too
Being anti-fascist is a good thing.
Exactly. Just because they say the same stuff, want the same changes and behave the same way as racists, doesnt mean theyre racists!
The best pepe
the “CEO of racism” is the “best pepe”?
It’s funny and unique
