The whole damn system exists to place the burden of a living wage on the customer while the company paying peanuts can claim no wrongdoing. And the really sad part is: it has worked.
Edit: and there are many, many businesses that wouldn’t be in business if they actually had to pay competitive wages on their own. The invisible hand can fix nothing if tipping culture says to throw more and more arbitrary amounts of money at people to subsidize their wages yourself. At some point (I’d argue we’re past it already), the band-aid needs to get ripped off. Only then will we see self-correction. The almost immediate loss of many businesses will likely trigger other actions. It’s already a no-win scenario.
Yes, but one way is on the company first and one isn’t. Would prices go up if these places were paying living wages? Most likely. Many businesses would be insolvent because their business model was simply never designed to pay a living wage to employees. Others could remain solvent, but probably not if they continue to take so much off the top at higher positions.
And that’s exactly it: the market never self-corrects if we throw arbitrary money in excess of listed prices to solve was is ultimately an issue of business solvency and ethics. There is no economic theory that would support such an idea in any industry, but here we are.
The sheer number of businesses out of the space might even drive down rents. That’s the kind of thing I mean by “other actions”. But things cannot continue as they are.
None of this is even to mention the sheer number of people in the service industry who are also on government assistance programs. They have to be – none of the blame is on them. But my tax dollars go to that, plus I am expected to pay extra to subsidize their wages with tips. I effectively subsidize them twice while someone reaps the rewards on their yacht. All I’m saying is the yacht people should be taking the risks first. That’s part of being a business owner.
This is not true. I’ve visited the USA multiple times and I’ve gotten tipping wrong every time.
the market isn’t gonna correct if it goes away because you’ll still be paying the exact same amount.
This is also not really true. You look at a menu in Australia and the price you see is the exact amount you pay. $20 lunch is $20 on the bill. No added tips or taxes or anything.
For the customer, this system is better.
Saying that same lunch in the USA would ‘have been $14 on the menu in the USA’ would not match my experience. In fact, prices for most things were in the same rough ballpark once the exchange rate was factored in.
Caveat: my last visit was 10 years ago. My experience may be out of date. 15% was considered a normal tip, then.
I’m sorry you’re a moron, and I don’t take financial advice from people who can’t figure out something as simple as tipping protocol. And quit lying, food is definitely cheaper on average in the states, and greater quantity too.
The food is pumped with filler trash, so the quantity is definitely there, but the prices aren’t as cheap as you think, especially for what you’re getting.
Are you a foreign to the USA trucker who spent a good portion of the last 7 years south of the border? No? I am, and know exactly what I’m talking about, intimately familiar with farm/ranch end prices and also wholesale prices as I now own a restaurant. I’m the rare person who’s worked at every end of the food industry and the middle too, as well as being a frequent customer in 22 states and 8 provinces. and very familiar with currency conversions from all the commodity rates, shipping and ordering. Meanwhile you are some fucking guy saying “nuh uh” who likely needs to go to wikipedia to try describe current American farm subsidy policy.
Oh look, an Aussie that needs you know that. Yes yes, everything is better there, it has to be, why else would y’all spend so much time trying to convince everyone of it.
Tipping does still suck though, and the way it is in many states of the US, slow business literally means employees get paid less, which is pretty fucked.
Australia certainly isn’t perfect, and don’t let anyone tell you how great Medicare is here because it’s not what it uses to be and slowly but surely slipping into private health insurance hell due to its languishing, but heck, defensive much mate?
I am glad that I don’t have to deal with tipping. Tipping is trash and seemingly many Americans agree it’s trash.
Not defensive, I really don’t care for Australians, they’ve a way of conducting themselves that I find very fucking irritating. New Zealanders i can get along with.
Tipping is good bc you van pay the employee directly. What needs to change is that tips need to be mandatory and when tips fall short of a living wage the business must pay pay to make up.
I agree wholeheartedly! Let’s make tipping mandatory. In fact, let’s add it on to the price of your bill automatically. Better still, let’s just add it onto the menu price. Oh hey, we’ve come full circle.
What difference is there to you, then, between “employer pays a reasonable living wage to their employees but raises the prices of the food a bit to accommodate” and “employer pays poverty wages, forcing the customers to pay their employees for them and forcing tax payers to pay up when people earning poverty wages inevitably rely on government programs to simply survive?” If tipping is mandatory, the only people that benefit is the employer since they can simply double dip - spend less money on payroll AND force the customer to make up for your lack of willingness to pay competitive wages. Yes, under current law, employers are supposed to make the difference if tips can’t cover at least minimum wage, but that’s not enforced nearly as much as it should be, which puts the onus on the workers being exploited in the first place, and even then minimum wage in this country is embarrassingly unfit for supporting anybody.
The more important question to ask is “why am I expected to pay an employee when the money I already give to a business should cover wages in the first place?”
I’m a tipped employee for my day job. I make a decent base pay, but the tips make up for that in spades during busy seasons. I’ve bought my current car with tip money. Despite this, I fully support getting rid of tips if it meant my livelihood wouldn’t be a gamble depending on factors outside my control, and especially if it meant fewer people had to rely on government assistance and could better provide a livelihood for themselves.
A business is free to offer mandatory tipping and they do have to make up the difference if its not the minimum wage. The minimum wage could be higher of course.
The whole damn system exists to place the burden of a living wage on the customer while the company paying peanuts can claim no wrongdoing. And the really sad part is: it has worked.
Edit: and there are many, many businesses that wouldn’t be in business if they actually had to pay competitive wages on their own. The invisible hand can fix nothing if tipping culture says to throw more and more arbitrary amounts of money at people to subsidize their wages yourself. At some point (I’d argue we’re past it already), the band-aid needs to get ripped off. Only then will we see self-correction. The almost immediate loss of many businesses will likely trigger other actions. It’s already a no-win scenario.
It’s on the customer either way
Yes, but one way is on the company first and one isn’t. Would prices go up if these places were paying living wages? Most likely. Many businesses would be insolvent because their business model was simply never designed to pay a living wage to employees. Others could remain solvent, but probably not if they continue to take so much off the top at higher positions.
And that’s exactly it: the market never self-corrects if we throw arbitrary money in excess of listed prices to solve was is ultimately an issue of business solvency and ethics. There is no economic theory that would support such an idea in any industry, but here we are.
The sheer number of businesses out of the space might even drive down rents. That’s the kind of thing I mean by “other actions”. But things cannot continue as they are.
None of this is even to mention the sheer number of people in the service industry who are also on government assistance programs. They have to be – none of the blame is on them. But my tax dollars go to that, plus I am expected to pay extra to subsidize their wages with tips. I effectively subsidize them twice while someone reaps the rewards on their yacht. All I’m saying is the yacht people should be taking the risks first. That’s part of being a business owner.
Dude, everyone understands the tipping system, the market isn’t gonna correct if it goes away because you’ll still be paying the exact same amount.
I’m not sure what isn’t getting across here.
Customers subsidize wages with tipping. The amount is ultimately arbitrary and allows business owners to avoid costs.
The actual cost of the wages is not arbitrary and should be put up by the business first.
You’re wrong. Is that clear enough?
Great argument.
Better than yours. The wordiness don’t make it true.
Show me on the doll where the free market hurt you.
This is not true. I’ve visited the USA multiple times and I’ve gotten tipping wrong every time.
This is also not really true. You look at a menu in Australia and the price you see is the exact amount you pay. $20 lunch is $20 on the bill. No added tips or taxes or anything.
For the customer, this system is better.
Saying that same lunch in the USA would ‘have been $14 on the menu in the USA’ would not match my experience. In fact, prices for most things were in the same rough ballpark once the exchange rate was factored in.
Caveat: my last visit was 10 years ago. My experience may be out of date. 15% was considered a normal tip, then.
I’m sorry you’re a moron, and I don’t take financial advice from people who can’t figure out something as simple as tipping protocol. And quit lying, food is definitely cheaper on average in the states, and greater quantity too.
The food is pumped with filler trash, so the quantity is definitely there, but the prices aren’t as cheap as you think, especially for what you’re getting.
Are you a foreign to the USA trucker who spent a good portion of the last 7 years south of the border? No? I am, and know exactly what I’m talking about, intimately familiar with farm/ranch end prices and also wholesale prices as I now own a restaurant. I’m the rare person who’s worked at every end of the food industry and the middle too, as well as being a frequent customer in 22 states and 8 provinces. and very familiar with currency conversions from all the commodity rates, shipping and ordering. Meanwhile you are some fucking guy saying “nuh uh” who likely needs to go to wikipedia to try describe current American farm subsidy policy.
The difference is that on slow nights, staff get paid less, which is fucked up.
The business needs to wear the cost, because they reap the rewards, which is the narrative capitalism supposedly is about.
Tipping sucks, I’m glad we don’t have it in Australia.
another difference, like it or not, is that tipping allows for discrimination.
Black service providers are tipped disproportionately less than white service providers.
Oh look, an Aussie that needs you know that. Yes yes, everything is better there, it has to be, why else would y’all spend so much time trying to convince everyone of it.
Tipping does still suck though, and the way it is in many states of the US, slow business literally means employees get paid less, which is pretty fucked.
Australia certainly isn’t perfect, and don’t let anyone tell you how great Medicare is here because it’s not what it uses to be and slowly but surely slipping into private health insurance hell due to its languishing, but heck, defensive much mate?
I am glad that I don’t have to deal with tipping. Tipping is trash and seemingly many Americans agree it’s trash.
Not defensive, I really don’t care for Australians, they’ve a way of conducting themselves that I find very fucking irritating. New Zealanders i can get along with.
I’m sorry for my place of birth, and I’m sorry for liking the fact I don’t have to tip because of my place of birth, I guess?
This is just a strange internet interaction, but may I suggest not letting people you’re not a fan of them because of their nationality?
Nah. Yall are cunts and I don’t like you.
Tipping is good bc you van pay the employee directly. What needs to change is that tips need to be mandatory and when tips fall short of a living wage the business must pay pay to make up.
What advantage does this hold versus the company paying a living wage in the first place?
Fucking retarded
I’m against insults, but you made me laugh. 🙏🏻
I agree wholeheartedly! Let’s make tipping mandatory. In fact, let’s add it on to the price of your bill automatically. Better still, let’s just add it onto the menu price. Oh hey, we’ve come full circle.
No, it should be a direct payment to the staff.
Why? All that does is burden the employee by complicating reporting their income.
What difference is there to you, then, between “employer pays a reasonable living wage to their employees but raises the prices of the food a bit to accommodate” and “employer pays poverty wages, forcing the customers to pay their employees for them and forcing tax payers to pay up when people earning poverty wages inevitably rely on government programs to simply survive?” If tipping is mandatory, the only people that benefit is the employer since they can simply double dip - spend less money on payroll AND force the customer to make up for your lack of willingness to pay competitive wages. Yes, under current law, employers are supposed to make the difference if tips can’t cover at least minimum wage, but that’s not enforced nearly as much as it should be, which puts the onus on the workers being exploited in the first place, and even then minimum wage in this country is embarrassingly unfit for supporting anybody.
The more important question to ask is “why am I expected to pay an employee when the money I already give to a business should cover wages in the first place?”
I’m a tipped employee for my day job. I make a decent base pay, but the tips make up for that in spades during busy seasons. I’ve bought my current car with tip money. Despite this, I fully support getting rid of tips if it meant my livelihood wouldn’t be a gamble depending on factors outside my control, and especially if it meant fewer people had to rely on government assistance and could better provide a livelihood for themselves.
A business is free to offer mandatory tipping and they do have to make up the difference if its not the minimum wage. The minimum wage could be higher of course.
Or…and hear me out…RESTAURANTS SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO PAY THEIR STAFF LESS THAN $3/HR!