• hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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    5 days ago

    Idk, some people portray Germany as being properly fascist and having protest censored effectively… It’s not exactly like that. All I can say I live there and it’s not uncommon to walk into a pro-Palestine protest by accident. Or see people make some political statement. “They” were certainly not able to silence the people and protests are still going strong. Maybe not as strong as ever but I guess both the weather here in autumn isn’t exactly fun for outside protests and then the situation in Palestine has changed a bit as well, and generally, it’s been going on for quite a while… But with that said, we definitely had some police brutality this year. As far as I know there are some court cases from earlier this year where people caught the officers lying and there’s video evidence on how police misbehaved and hit people. And we all hope they loose their jobs and face consequences. And chances are this is going to happen.

    • JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org
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      4 days ago

      People have read so much propaganda online that they’ve lost any connection to reality. They are sitting somewhere in the world in front of their phones, are reading propaganda articles and are eating up whatever someone random propagandist tells them.

      • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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        4 days ago

        Very accurate description of modern times. Maybe one day we should at least try to tackle this and have a healthy society…

      • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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        4 days ago

        Lemmy Americans when the rest of the world warns them about authoritarian tendencies in their political system: “yea we know it sucks”.

        Lemmy Germans when the rest of the world warns them about authoritarian tendencies in their political system: “you must be the victim of propaganda”.

        • nysqin@feddit.org
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          3 days ago

          Yeah, no. You’re misrepresenting the claim of the person you responded to.

          Nobody is disputing the rise of the far right in Germany, nor the increasing police brutality. We experience the same authoritarian tendencies as other countries.

          This article, however, paints the country as an already authoritarian police state where expressing the wrong opinion will get you jailed. That’s not happening (yet).

          • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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            3 days ago

            I hear you, and nobody is claiming Germany is already living under a totalitarian police state. Yet pretending the article says dissenters are immediately jailed is a misread, precisely the misrepresentation you’re accusing me of.

            The article is documenting escalating repression, police violence against elected officials, chilling of speech, and a political culture that treats Palestine solidarity as criminal suspicion by default. You can choose to read it as hysteria, or you take the rise of authoritarianism world-wide actually seriously and read it as a useful warning.

            Look at how UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese was smeared, disinvited from institutions, and treated as an existential threat simply for applying international law. That pattern should disturb anyone who cares about democratic norms.

            And when people like @hendrik@palaver.p3x.de and @JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org and @Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org jump in all over this thread and call critical journalism “propaganda” and accuse me of “scrapping the web for negative news to spread [my] propaganda”, it kind of confirms the point, doesn’t it? Criticism of state violence is instantly pathologized and viewed with suspicion. If this is what’s happening on fucking …lemmy, I honestly am a bit uncomfortable about what it means for mainstream discourse in the country! And yes, I agree, absolutely agree, that Germany has not crossed the line yet, but the line is getting closer, and pretending the raising of the alarm is the problem is exactly how democracies sleepwalk into disaster.

            • Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org
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              3 days ago

              @acargitz

              This is not an article but a cheap propaganda piece published via Substack written by a person who runs a YT channel called “Mad in Germany.” This person has no idea what is going on in Germany.

              The piece’s statements are not true. Germany has not “normalized racism and state violence in a way that goes beyond any conflict abroad,” and, no, it is not “really the country of the 1920s.”

              And, no, the fact that a German newspaper did not publish Ai Weiwei’s text is not “censorship,” it was a private magazine that refused to publish an absurdly weird article (read the text, we had a discussion on Weiwei’s article here on Lemmy a few days ago in another thread as you will remember).

              And so it goes on. I don’t understand why such a post is not deleted.

              What makes things worse is that such posts critical of Germany and Europe’s stance on rights violations often come from accounts praising China, Russia, and other autocracies for their politics. This is the case also here.

              • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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                3 days ago

                What makes things worse is that such posts critical of Germany’s and Europe’s stance on rights violations often come from accounts praising China, Russia, and other autocracies for their politics. This is the case also here.

                This is a blatant ad hominem attack here. I’m a bit flabbergasted at this kind of unfounded vitriol and smear, presented in such a passive aggressive manner. What are your receipts?

                a cheap propaganda piece published via Substack

                Zeteo is a real new media organization, with “Mostly Factual” rating on MBFC, only because of the reviewer’s perception that it does “one-sided reporting that can sometimes lack opposing counterpoints”, without any failed fact checks in its history. Their choice of publishing platform is irrelevant: as far as I can see in the sidebar, !europe@feddit.org does not have a rule about Substack, this is not !world@lemmy.world.

                written by a person who runs a YT channel called “Mad in Germany.” This person has no idea what is going on in Germany.

                Wrong: “James Jackson is a freelance reporter and broadcaster based in Berlin and covering news, business and culture in Germany and Central Eastern Europe for publications like the BBC, Sunday Times, Time Magazine and others. A former trainee at Deutsche Welle, he produced an award-winning documentary about the trans history of Berlin and is a Poland fellow of the International Journalist Programme.” That bio definitely does not scream “has no idea what is going on in Germany”. Source: https://www.madingermany.org/about

                I don’t understand why such a post is not deleted.

                So, first you call me a bootlicker of autocracies, then you ask for the post to be deleted. You are creating an extremely toxic discussion and at this point, I’m pretty sure you’ve broken Rule 3 of the community.

                Beyond that, for what it’s worth: Your Ai Weiwei point also misses the point. A private magazine can decline to publish, but spiking a commissioned piece for its political content is still evidence of a chilling climate. The article’s core claims are about escalating repression, police violence at protests, and the narrowing of acceptable speech. These are contestable on facts, not on the author’s YouTube channel. If you think the claims are false, show counter-evidence on policing, on protest bans, on international warnings, and on the treatment of Palestine-solidarity voices.

                Further, you are choosing to double down on your smear precisely in response to a comment where I very very clearly say “I agree, absolutely agree, that Germany has not crossed the line yet, but the line is getting closer, and pretending the raising of the alarm is the problem is exactly how democracies sleepwalk into disaster.”

                Do you have anything to contribute beyond toxicity, smears and paranoia?

                • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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                  3 days ago

                  I don’t know about all the accusations of smearing etc. I can just say I live in Germany as well, a different part of it. I occasionally leave the house and mingle with people. And what can I say? I’m seeing different things than that journalist. Violence hasn’t been normalized here. In fact there’s always a big outcry and everyone hates it. We have ten times less of it than for example the US. Sometimes administration even does sane things. And we’re kind of proud that society still somewhat works out. And I don’t think state violence is on the rise either. You were never allowed to say some slogans here. I’ve been shoved around and nearly had a horse trample on my foot on some protest 20 years ago. That’s just how it is. My city has 2 cops to protect the jewish synagogue. I suppose you can’t do your Palestine protest there or do some grafitti. But other than that the protests happen and I don’t see more state violence than for example 20 years ago. So the premise of the article is pretty much the opposite of reality as I perceive it.

                  Idk, why? Am I wrong? Is reality wrong or do I need glasses? I’m not saying Germany is perfect btw. We have systemic issues. We’ve always had and have racism, inequality, police violence, criminals. And political discourse is getting uncomfortable these days. And the idiots are way louder than a few years ago.

                  And as a suggestion, maybe give some context if you’re a journalist. If you have a picture of a protester being arrested, tell your english-speaking audience they’re let go by police 5 minutes later. And in Germany it’s not like in the US where you’d be brought to jail and then maybe deported.

    • da_cow (she/her)@feddit.org
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      4 days ago

      And we all hope they loose their jobs and face consequences. And chances are this is going to happen.

      I Kind of want your optimism. Seeing the case from munich, where a cop is allowed to continue his work even after he wished person he had to protect to be sent to Auschwitz really makes me wonder if they really can do whatever the fuck they want

      https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/polizist-bleibt-trotz-hetze-gegen-knobloch-im-dienst,UpmqLDR

      • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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        4 days ago

        Uh, I missed that. Seems in this case at least their chief / bosses try to make it right, so maybe there’s still hope?!

        • da_cow (she/her)@feddit.org
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          4 days ago

          He got set back a single rank for this! That seems like "we try to see that’s the least is we have to do without creat8ng to much 9f an uproar.

          • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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            4 days ago

            I know, and the outcome doesn’t seem right to me. But then I also have no clue what’s in the court files. All I was trying to say is their boss (police management) tried to fire them for it, which I think is commendable. But seems the court said employment law doesn’t work that way and then they (police) did everything they could legally do to crack down on it. Strip one rank, take away the uniform and make that individual do some boring office job… Might not be a perfect solution, but I think for once police can’t be blamed here. They utilized what was available to them. Of course court might still have made a wrong decision. And it doesn’t tell us much about systemic issues in the police force and the legal system.

    • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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      4 days ago

      Not properly fascist of course, but some very disturbing authoritarian tendencies have surfaced. It would be inconceivable until a few years ago that UN human rights experts would be wagging their finger at the Federal Republic of Germany. This is not normal.

        • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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          4 days ago

          Most certainly. I remember Germany getting reprimanded for various things. Racism, gender inequality, trying to deport people to Afghanistan after it was taken over by Taliban, we get sued by various entities or the EU for not implementing EU legislation. It happens all the time and isn’t anything new. And police violence isn’t new either, this borders on whataboutism, but I believe they’ve done far worse stuff than this.

  • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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    5 days ago

    Article beyond the paywall:

    Two politicians from the Left Party were beaten by police at separate pro-Palestine protests in Berlin this month while acting as parliamentary observers. Shocking footage shows a police officer punching one female MP in the face, completely unprovoked. Another MP was beaten at another protest and arrested – despite parliamentarians having immunity in Germany. The police said, without presenting evidence, that the second MP had attacked them, which the lawmaker forcefully denies. This claim has been repeated in much of the media, despite the Berlin police being caught previously lying by an independent forensic investigation.

    But even the self-censorship of the German media, which an analysis found used Israeli sources nine times more than Palestinian, isn’t enough for the country’s bloated antisemitism bureaucracy.

    The federal commissioner for antisemitism, Felix Klein, who was silent when leftist Jewish activists had their bank accounts illegally frozen by the state, has now called for media organizations to have specific antisemitism officers whose role would be to point out that any atrocities that taken place in Gaza are the result of an “unprecedented” terror attack, ignoring that Israel has targeted civilians, journalists, hospitals, schools, soccer fields, entire families. The Far-Right Sets the Agenda

    Much is made of the rise of the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD), who now sit comfortably at the top of the polls and is set to sweep to majorities in state elections next year. And, once again, the German conservatives look on helplessly.

    Though Chancellor Merz promised to halve the support of the AfD when he took over the conservative Christian Democrat party, their support has since more than doubled.

    One recent study says that the approach of mainstream parties has been to let the far-right set the agenda by constantly talking about their favorite political battlegrounds of Islam and immigration.

    In one particularly egregious example, Merz recently complained about the “city image” problem caused by migration, which caused outrage among liberal Germans. Some have even pointed out similarities between that and a statement by Nazi propaganda minister Goebbels, who said Jews ruined the “street image” of German cities. But Merz doubled down on the statement, saying “ask your daughters,” and a third of Germans afterwards told pollsters “people with non-white skin color or non-Christian religious clothing ‘disturb’ the city’s image in Germany. Given Germany’s history, that should disturb us all. Mounting International Criticism

    The good news is that after two years, international institutions are finally beginning to watch and comment on police violence and repression in Germany.

    UN experts forcefully called on Germany to stop repressing the Palestinian solidarity movement in a fresh statement. “We are alarmed by the persistent pattern of police violence and apparent suppression of Palestine solidarity activism by Germany,” the experts said. “Germany must support, not suppress, actions aiming to stop atrocity crimes and genocide,” the experts said. “No circumstances can justify unnecessary and excessive police violence or unjust criminalisation for exercising fundamental freedoms.”

    And the European Commissioner for Human Rights visited Germany this month, also raising concerns about freedom of peaceful assembly and expression in the context of Gaza protests. He noted that “the distinction between what constitutes legitimate criticism of Israel and what constitutes antisemitic hate speech has become increasingly blurred,” leading to “undue restrictions of the right to freedom of expression.”

    Palestine solidarity activists are frequently treated and portrayed as something closer to a marauding mob of violent Jew-haters than activists trying to stop atrocities. Their marches were frequently described as “Jew-hate marches” in newspapers owned by the Axel Springer media group, whose CEO was just given the Israeli Presidential medal of honor.

    But a study showed researchers that participants at the largest ever German demonstration for Palestine in late September were “predominantly young, highly educated, and politically left-leaning.”

    “While there was clear support for the recognition of a Palestinian state,” the study noted, “they simultaneously advocated for special protection of Jewish life in Germany.”

    As a reporter, I frequently go to these demonstrations, and I’ve noticed that you are far more likely to meet Jews demonstrating for Palestine in Berlin than you are at the small pro-Israel counter demonstrations.

    Will this mounting international criticism that they have gone too far in repressing democratic voices, along with the growing consensus that Israel committed genocide in Gaza, lead to a shift in the German elite? I won’t hold my breath.

    “Facts are acknowledged partially, forgotten deliberately, or swallowed by collective silence. And so we repeat catastrophe – again and again, in cycles,” Chinese dissident artist Ai Weiwei recently wrote when he was commissioned by Germany’s Zeit Magazin to write about “what I wished I had known about Germany before.” After excoriating German self-censorship and conformism, he was, in fact, censored, with the newspaper spiking the commission.

    As an activist from a group called Germans against Genocide told me, four consecutive German generations have been involved in genocide: supporting the Armenian genocide, against the Herero and Nama, the multiple Nazi genocides, and now supplying arms and diplomatic cover to Israel against the Palestinians. So what is German history, other than catastrophe, again and again?

    James Jackson is a Berlin-based independent journalist and host of the Mad in Germany YouTube podcast.