In its crackdown on pro-Palestine speech, Germany has normalized racism and state violence in a way that goes beyond any conflict abroad, reminding us this really is the country of the 1920s, again.
Idk, some people portray Germany as being properly fascist and having protest censored effectively… It’s not exactly like that. All I can say I live there and it’s not uncommon to walk into a pro-Palestine protest by accident. Or see people make some political statement. “They” were certainly not able to silence the people and protests are still going strong. Maybe not as strong as ever but I guess both the weather here in autumn isn’t exactly fun for outside protests and then the situation in Palestine has changed a bit as well, and generally, it’s been going on for quite a while… But with that said, we definitely had some police brutality this year. As far as I know there are some court cases from earlier this year where people caught the officers lying and there’s video evidence on how police misbehaved and hit people. And we all hope they loose their jobs and face consequences. And chances are this is going to happen.
People have read so much propaganda online that they’ve lost any connection to reality. They are sitting somewhere in the world in front of their phones, are reading propaganda articles and are eating up whatever someone random propagandist tells them.
Yeah, no. You’re misrepresenting the claim of the person you responded to.
Nobody is disputing the rise of the far right in Germany, nor the increasing police brutality. We experience the same authoritarian tendencies as other countries.
This article, however, paints the country as an already authoritarian police state where expressing the wrong opinion will get you jailed. That’s not happening (yet).
I hear you, and nobody is claiming Germany is already living under a totalitarian police state. Yet pretending the article says dissenters are immediately jailed is a misread, precisely the misrepresentation you’re accusing me of.
The article is documenting escalating repression, police violence against elected officials, chilling of speech, and a political culture that treats Palestine solidarity as criminal suspicion by default.
You can choose to read it as hysteria, or you take the rise of authoritarianism world-wide actually seriously and read it as a useful warning.
Look at how UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese was smeared, disinvited from institutions, and treated as an existential threat simply for applying international law. That pattern should disturb anyone who cares about democratic norms.
And when people like @hendrik@palaver.p3x.de and @JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org and @Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org jump in all over this thread and call critical journalism “propaganda” and accuse me of “scrapping the web for negative news to spread [my] propaganda”, it kind of confirms the point, doesn’t it? Criticism of state violence is instantly pathologized and viewed with suspicion. If this is what’s happening on fucking …lemmy, I honestly am a bit uncomfortable about what it means for mainstream discourse in the country! And yes, I agree, absolutely agree, that Germany has not crossed the line yet, but the line is getting closer, and pretending the raising of the alarm is the problem is exactly how democracies sleepwalk into disaster.
This is not an article but a cheap propaganda piece published via Substack written by a person who runs a YT channel called “Mad in Germany.” This person has no idea what is going on in Germany.
The piece’s statements are not true. Germany has not “normalized racism and state violence in a way that goes beyond any conflict abroad,” and, no, it is not “really the country of the 1920s.”
And, no, the fact that a German newspaper did not publish Ai Weiwei’s text is not “censorship,” it was a private magazine that refused to publish an absurdly weird article (read the text, we had a discussion on Weiwei’s article here on Lemmy a few days ago in another thread as you will remember).
And so it goes on. I don’t understand why such a post is not deleted.
What makes things worse is that such posts critical of Germany and Europe’s stance on rights violations often come from accounts praising China, Russia, and other autocracies for their politics. This is the case also here.
What makes things worse is that such posts critical of Germany’s and Europe’s stance on rights violations often come from accounts praising China, Russia, and other autocracies for their politics. This is the case also here.
This is a blatant ad hominem attack here. I’m a bit flabbergasted at this kind of unfounded vitriol and smear, presented in such a passive aggressive manner. What are your receipts?
a cheap propaganda piece published via Substack
Zeteo is a real new media organization, with “Mostly Factual” rating on MBFC, only because of the reviewer’s perception that it does “one-sided reporting that can sometimes lack opposing counterpoints”, without any failed fact checks in its history. Their choice of publishing platform is irrelevant: as far as I can see in the sidebar, !europe@feddit.org does not have a rule about Substack, this is not !world@lemmy.world.
written by a person who runs a YT channel called “Mad in Germany.” This person has no idea what is going on in Germany.
Wrong: “James Jackson is a freelance reporter and broadcaster based in Berlin and covering news, business and culture in Germany and Central Eastern Europe for publications like the BBC, Sunday Times, Time Magazine and others. A former trainee at Deutsche Welle, he produced an award-winning documentary about the trans history of Berlin and is a Poland fellow of the International Journalist Programme.” That bio definitely does not scream “has no idea what is going on in Germany”. Source: https://www.madingermany.org/about
I don’t understand why such a post is not deleted.
So, first you call me a bootlicker of autocracies, then you ask for the post to be deleted. You are creating an extremely toxic discussion and at this point, I’m pretty sure you’ve broken Rule 3 of the community.
Beyond that, for what it’s worth: Your Ai Weiwei point also misses the point. A private magazine can decline to publish, but spiking a commissioned piece for its political content is still evidence of a chilling climate. The article’s core claims are about escalating repression, police violence at protests, and the narrowing of acceptable speech. These are contestable on facts, not on the author’s YouTube channel. If you think the claims are false, show counter-evidence on policing, on protest bans, on international warnings, and on the treatment of Palestine-solidarity voices.
Further, you are choosing to double down on your smear precisely in response to a comment where I very very clearly say “I agree, absolutely agree, that Germany has not crossed the line yet, but the line is getting closer, and pretending the raising of the alarm is the problem is exactly how democracies sleepwalk into disaster.”
Do you have anything to contribute beyond toxicity, smears and paranoia?
I don’t know about all the accusations of smearing etc. I can just say I live in Germany as well, a different part of it. I occasionally leave the house and mingle with people. And what can I say? I’m seeing different things than that journalist. Violence hasn’t been normalized here. In fact there’s always a big outcry and everyone hates it. We have ten times less of it than for example the US. Sometimes administration even does sane things. And we’re kind of proud that society still somewhat works out. And I don’t think state violence is on the rise either. You were never allowed to say some slogans here. I’ve been shoved around and nearly had a horse trample on my foot on some protest 20 years ago. That’s just how it is. My city has 2 cops to protect the jewish synagogue. I suppose you can’t do your Palestine protest there or do some grafitti. But other than that the protests happen and I don’t see more state violence than for example 20 years ago. So the premise of the article is pretty much the opposite of reality as I perceive it.
Idk, why? Am I wrong? Is reality wrong or do I need glasses? I’m not saying Germany is perfect btw. We have systemic issues. We’ve always had and have racism, inequality, police violence, criminals. And political discourse is getting uncomfortable these days. And the idiots are way louder than a few years ago.
And as a suggestion, maybe give some context if you’re a journalist. If you have a picture of a protester being arrested, tell your english-speaking audience they’re let go by police 5 minutes later. And in Germany it’s not like in the US where you’d be brought to jail and then maybe deported.
Look, like I repeated multiple times in this discussion, nobody is saying Germany is a totalitarian state. There are worrying signs. I get that in your immediate experience those might not be there. But lived experience is not a substitute for structural analysis. The article is not saying that they are pervasive, but that they are becoming more common and that’s alarming.
We are on the same side here: the side that wants Germany to be a free and democratic country. Sounding an alarm should not be cause for defensiveness but for vigilance.
I’m a dual EU-Canadian citizen. Canada is not an authoritarian country. However in the past few years, more and more, provincial governments are using a constitutional trick called the Notwithstanding Clause to push various political agendas without having to care about judicial oversight. If someone rings the alarm that this is an authoritarian tendency, a slippery slope that could fundamentally erode our rights as Canadians, should I start calling them anti-Canadian propagandists? Or should I take stock and weigh the danger and maybe use my position as a citizen of a democracy to make noise about it?
«The price of liberty is eternal vigilance» because democracies don’t fail overnight. They erode at the margins, starting with the people it is easiest to vilify. The time to speak up is not when repression becomes universal, but when it becomes noticeable at all.
And we all hope they loose their jobs and face consequences. And chances are this is going to happen.
I Kind of want your optimism. Seeing the case from munich, where a cop is allowed to continue his work even after he wished person he had to protect to be sent to Auschwitz really makes me wonder if they really can do whatever the fuck they want
I know, and the outcome doesn’t seem right to me. But then I also have no clue what’s in the court files. All I was trying to say is their boss (police management) tried to fire them for it, which I think is commendable. But seems the court said employment law doesn’t work that way and then they (police) did everything they could legally do to crack down on it. Strip one rank, take away the uniform and make that individual do some boring office job… Might not be a perfect solution, but I think for once police can’t be blamed here. They utilized what was available to them. Of course court might still have made a wrong decision. And it doesn’t tell us much about systemic issues in the police force and the legal system.
Not properly fascist of course, but some very disturbing authoritarian tendencies have surfaced. It would be inconceivable until a few years ago that UN human rights experts would be wagging their finger at the Federal Republic of Germany. This is not normal.
Most certainly. I remember Germany getting reprimanded for various things. Racism, gender inequality, trying to deport people to Afghanistan after it was taken over by Taliban, we get sued by various entities or the EU for not implementing EU legislation. It happens all the time and isn’t anything new. And police violence isn’t new either, this borders on whataboutism, but I believe they’ve done far worse stuff than this.
Idk, some people portray Germany as being properly fascist and having protest censored effectively… It’s not exactly like that. All I can say I live there and it’s not uncommon to walk into a pro-Palestine protest by accident. Or see people make some political statement. “They” were certainly not able to silence the people and protests are still going strong. Maybe not as strong as ever but I guess both the weather here in autumn isn’t exactly fun for outside protests and then the situation in Palestine has changed a bit as well, and generally, it’s been going on for quite a while… But with that said, we definitely had some police brutality this year. As far as I know there are some court cases from earlier this year where people caught the officers lying and there’s video evidence on how police misbehaved and hit people. And we all hope they loose their jobs and face consequences. And chances are this is going to happen.
People have read so much propaganda online that they’ve lost any connection to reality. They are sitting somewhere in the world in front of their phones, are reading propaganda articles and are eating up whatever someone random propagandist tells them.
Very accurate description of modern times. Maybe one day we should at least try to tackle this and have a healthy society…
Lemmy Americans when the rest of the world warns them about authoritarian tendencies in their political system: “yea we know it sucks”.
Lemmy Germans when the rest of the world warns them about authoritarian tendencies in their political system: “you must be the victim of propaganda”.
Yeah, no. You’re misrepresenting the claim of the person you responded to.
Nobody is disputing the rise of the far right in Germany, nor the increasing police brutality. We experience the same authoritarian tendencies as other countries.
This article, however, paints the country as an already authoritarian police state where expressing the wrong opinion will get you jailed. That’s not happening (yet).
I hear you, and nobody is claiming Germany is already living under a totalitarian police state. Yet pretending the article says dissenters are immediately jailed is a misread, precisely the misrepresentation you’re accusing me of.
The article is documenting escalating repression, police violence against elected officials, chilling of speech, and a political culture that treats Palestine solidarity as criminal suspicion by default. You can choose to read it as hysteria, or you take the rise of authoritarianism world-wide actually seriously and read it as a useful warning.
Look at how UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese was smeared, disinvited from institutions, and treated as an existential threat simply for applying international law. That pattern should disturb anyone who cares about democratic norms.
And when people like @hendrik@palaver.p3x.de and @JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org and @Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org jump in all over this thread and call critical journalism “propaganda” and accuse me of “scrapping the web for negative news to spread [my] propaganda”, it kind of confirms the point, doesn’t it? Criticism of state violence is instantly pathologized and viewed with suspicion. If this is what’s happening on fucking …lemmy, I honestly am a bit uncomfortable about what it means for mainstream discourse in the country! And yes, I agree, absolutely agree, that Germany has not crossed the line yet, but the line is getting closer, and pretending the raising of the alarm is the problem is exactly how democracies sleepwalk into disaster.
@acargitz
This is not an article but a cheap propaganda piece published via Substack written by a person who runs a YT channel called “Mad in Germany.” This person has no idea what is going on in Germany.
The piece’s statements are not true. Germany has not “normalized racism and state violence in a way that goes beyond any conflict abroad,” and, no, it is not “really the country of the 1920s.”
And, no, the fact that a German newspaper did not publish Ai Weiwei’s text is not “censorship,” it was a private magazine that refused to publish an absurdly weird article (read the text, we had a discussion on Weiwei’s article here on Lemmy a few days ago in another thread as you will remember).
And so it goes on. I don’t understand why such a post is not deleted.
What makes things worse is that such posts critical of Germany and Europe’s stance on rights violations often come from accounts praising China, Russia, and other autocracies for their politics. This is the case also here.
This is a blatant ad hominem attack here. I’m a bit flabbergasted at this kind of unfounded vitriol and smear, presented in such a passive aggressive manner. What are your receipts?
Zeteo is a real new media organization, with “Mostly Factual” rating on MBFC, only because of the reviewer’s perception that it does “one-sided reporting that can sometimes lack opposing counterpoints”, without any failed fact checks in its history. Their choice of publishing platform is irrelevant: as far as I can see in the sidebar, !europe@feddit.org does not have a rule about Substack, this is not !world@lemmy.world.
Wrong: “James Jackson is a freelance reporter and broadcaster based in Berlin and covering news, business and culture in Germany and Central Eastern Europe for publications like the BBC, Sunday Times, Time Magazine and others. A former trainee at Deutsche Welle, he produced an award-winning documentary about the trans history of Berlin and is a Poland fellow of the International Journalist Programme.” That bio definitely does not scream “has no idea what is going on in Germany”. Source: https://www.madingermany.org/about
So, first you call me a bootlicker of autocracies, then you ask for the post to be deleted. You are creating an extremely toxic discussion and at this point, I’m pretty sure you’ve broken Rule 3 of the community.
Beyond that, for what it’s worth: Your Ai Weiwei point also misses the point. A private magazine can decline to publish, but spiking a commissioned piece for its political content is still evidence of a chilling climate. The article’s core claims are about escalating repression, police violence at protests, and the narrowing of acceptable speech. These are contestable on facts, not on the author’s YouTube channel. If you think the claims are false, show counter-evidence on policing, on protest bans, on international warnings, and on the treatment of Palestine-solidarity voices.
Further, you are choosing to double down on your smear precisely in response to a comment where I very very clearly say “I agree, absolutely agree, that Germany has not crossed the line yet, but the line is getting closer, and pretending the raising of the alarm is the problem is exactly how democracies sleepwalk into disaster.”
Do you have anything to contribute beyond toxicity, smears and paranoia?
I don’t know about all the accusations of smearing etc. I can just say I live in Germany as well, a different part of it. I occasionally leave the house and mingle with people. And what can I say? I’m seeing different things than that journalist. Violence hasn’t been normalized here. In fact there’s always a big outcry and everyone hates it. We have ten times less of it than for example the US. Sometimes administration even does sane things. And we’re kind of proud that society still somewhat works out. And I don’t think state violence is on the rise either. You were never allowed to say some slogans here. I’ve been shoved around and nearly had a horse trample on my foot on some protest 20 years ago. That’s just how it is. My city has 2 cops to protect the jewish synagogue. I suppose you can’t do your Palestine protest there or do some grafitti. But other than that the protests happen and I don’t see more state violence than for example 20 years ago. So the premise of the article is pretty much the opposite of reality as I perceive it.
Idk, why? Am I wrong? Is reality wrong or do I need glasses? I’m not saying Germany is perfect btw. We have systemic issues. We’ve always had and have racism, inequality, police violence, criminals. And political discourse is getting uncomfortable these days. And the idiots are way louder than a few years ago.
And as a suggestion, maybe give some context if you’re a journalist. If you have a picture of a protester being arrested, tell your english-speaking audience they’re let go by police 5 minutes later. And in Germany it’s not like in the US where you’d be brought to jail and then maybe deported.
Look, like I repeated multiple times in this discussion, nobody is saying Germany is a totalitarian state. There are worrying signs. I get that in your immediate experience those might not be there. But lived experience is not a substitute for structural analysis. The article is not saying that they are pervasive, but that they are becoming more common and that’s alarming.
We are on the same side here: the side that wants Germany to be a free and democratic country. Sounding an alarm should not be cause for defensiveness but for vigilance.
I’m a dual EU-Canadian citizen. Canada is not an authoritarian country. However in the past few years, more and more, provincial governments are using a constitutional trick called the Notwithstanding Clause to push various political agendas without having to care about judicial oversight. If someone rings the alarm that this is an authoritarian tendency, a slippery slope that could fundamentally erode our rights as Canadians, should I start calling them anti-Canadian propagandists? Or should I take stock and weigh the danger and maybe use my position as a citizen of a democracy to make noise about it?
«The price of liberty is eternal vigilance» because democracies don’t fail overnight. They erode at the margins, starting with the people it is easiest to vilify. The time to speak up is not when repression becomes universal, but when it becomes noticeable at all.
Removed by mod
Actually, I do.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
I Kind of want your optimism. Seeing the case from munich, where a cop is allowed to continue his work even after he wished person he had to protect to be sent to Auschwitz really makes me wonder if they really can do whatever the fuck they want
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/polizist-bleibt-trotz-hetze-gegen-knobloch-im-dienst,UpmqLDR
Uh, I missed that. Seems in this case at least their chief / bosses try to make it right, so maybe there’s still hope?!
He got set back a single rank for this! That seems like "we try to see that’s the least is we have to do without creat8ng to much 9f an uproar.
I know, and the outcome doesn’t seem right to me. But then I also have no clue what’s in the court files. All I was trying to say is their boss (police management) tried to fire them for it, which I think is commendable. But seems the court said employment law doesn’t work that way and then they (police) did everything they could legally do to crack down on it. Strip one rank, take away the uniform and make that individual do some boring office job… Might not be a perfect solution, but I think for once police can’t be blamed here. They utilized what was available to them. Of course court might still have made a wrong decision. And it doesn’t tell us much about systemic issues in the police force and the legal system.
Not properly fascist of course, but some very disturbing authoritarian tendencies have surfaced. It would be inconceivable until a few years ago that UN human rights experts would be wagging their finger at the Federal Republic of Germany. This is not normal.
@acargitz
Your comment clearly reveals that you have no idea about Germany.
Most certainly. I remember Germany getting reprimanded for various things. Racism, gender inequality, trying to deport people to Afghanistan after it was taken over by Taliban, we get sued by various entities or the EU for not implementing EU legislation. It happens all the time and isn’t anything new. And police violence isn’t new either, this borders on whataboutism, but I believe they’ve done far worse stuff than this.
Your comment is completely out of touch.
Why? Genuine question…
Removed by mod
One can’t be a Greek millenial and not have some idea.
Removed by mod