This is what the EU should propose to Putin. Russia will withdraw from all land it seized from Ukraine after the 2022 invasion. NATO would be dissolved and replaced with a European alliance. Ukraine and Canada would be permitted to join but not the US. If Putin doesn’t accept the proposal, the UK and France would send troops to Ukraine.
I don’t understand why this was downvoted, if such a proposal had been made in 2022 during first Istanbul talks, it could have prevented another three years of meatgrinder. As during those talks Russia openly discussed getting troops back to pre-2022 border as possible option, and European alliance instead of NATO (i.e. no US troops and nukes in Europe) is also offer that is hard to ignore. So after some negotiation it might become a deal; sadly noone offered that.
This is delusional. It’s not a personal vendetta against the USA. Nuclear Europe fielding military in Ukraine is a red line for Russian national security. Until people understand the reality of security, you’re all going to be blathering idiots.
There are two positions on security - it’s either I am secure while you are not or it’s we’re both secure. Mutual security is the only way that peers can engage sustainably. Assymetrical security cannot be sustained by peers.
Ukraine being a non-militarized buffer between Europe and Russia is critical to Russian national security. Any arrangement where Ukraine is militarily aligned with the rest of Europe is an asymetrical security situation where Europe has security at the expense of Russia losing security.
It will never be sustainable.
Russia will either establish Ukraine as fully demilitarized with its constant oversight for the next several decades, as a result of the violation of trust that the US and EU committed, or Russia will occupy Ukraine. These are the only two options that establish mutual security and thus are the only sustainable options. Anything else is an escalation by Europe.
Russia would gain Crimea, the US military would no longer be in Europe, sanctions against Russia would be lifted, and with UK and French troops in Ukraine, Russia would not be able to conquer Ukraine.
Meanwhile, the US provides the bulk of NATO accounting for over 70% of arms and majority of the troops. Without the US, there is no NATO. Anybody who understands basic arithmetic can see how absurd this whole notion is.
Numbers alone don’t count. During World War II, Germany could have conquered Russia if it didn’t have to fight the powerful US in the west. That’s the reason Putin might accept the plan. Without the US in Europe, Putin might think he can conquer Europe.
By 1944, Russia had fully recovered from the German invasion and was a powerful military. That was not the case in 1942. When Hitler launched his 1942 summer offensive, he had to keep units in the west to repel any invasion of France by the Western allies.
You can read the whole book, USSR was the main force fighting the nazis and did far more than all the allies combined. Your historical illiteracy is frankly an embarrassment.
I know that but the Western allies kept Hitler from concentrating his forces against Russia. Also, the West through Arctic convoys gave Russia supplies. Finally, it was the West which bombed Germany not Russia.
The reality is that US companies continued to work with the nazis well into the war. And as the book I linked explains in great detail, USSR would have won the war regardless. Your whole premise here is nonsense born out of sheer ignorance. Instead of making inane comments on here and wasting people’s time, go read a book and learn about the subject you’re attempting to debate.
This is what the EU should propose to Putin. Russia will withdraw from all land it seized from Ukraine after the 2022 invasion. NATO would be dissolved and replaced with a European alliance. Ukraine and Canada would be permitted to join but not the US. If Putin doesn’t accept the proposal, the UK and France would send troops to Ukraine.
I don’t understand why this was downvoted, if such a proposal had been made in 2022 during first Istanbul talks, it could have prevented another three years of meatgrinder. As during those talks Russia openly discussed getting troops back to pre-2022 border as possible option, and European alliance instead of NATO (i.e. no US troops and nukes in Europe) is also offer that is hard to ignore. So after some negotiation it might become a deal; sadly noone offered that.
This is delusional. It’s not a personal vendetta against the USA. Nuclear Europe fielding military in Ukraine is a red line for Russian national security. Until people understand the reality of security, you’re all going to be blathering idiots.
There are two positions on security - it’s either I am secure while you are not or it’s we’re both secure. Mutual security is the only way that peers can engage sustainably. Assymetrical security cannot be sustained by peers.
Ukraine being a non-militarized buffer between Europe and Russia is critical to Russian national security. Any arrangement where Ukraine is militarily aligned with the rest of Europe is an asymetrical security situation where Europe has security at the expense of Russia losing security.
It will never be sustainable.
Russia will either establish Ukraine as fully demilitarized with its constant oversight for the next several decades, as a result of the violation of trust that the US and EU committed, or Russia will occupy Ukraine. These are the only two options that establish mutual security and thus are the only sustainable options. Anything else is an escalation by Europe.
Why would Russia agree to that?
Russia would gain Crimea, the US military would no longer be in Europe, sanctions against Russia would be lifted, and with UK and French troops in Ukraine, Russia would not be able to conquer Ukraine.
Russia already has Crimea.
But if you mean a full withdrawal of the US from Europe, then they would probably take my. US would never agree to it though
There is zero chance of Russia withdrawing from the current territories at this point. Also, why would Russia give shit if France and UK sent troops to Ukraine. Russian army is at around 1.5 million troops, while the EU could scrape up a few thousand troops at best. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-army-troops-ukraine-defence-b2701635.html
Meanwhile, the US provides the bulk of NATO accounting for over 70% of arms and majority of the troops. Without the US, there is no NATO. Anybody who understands basic arithmetic can see how absurd this whole notion is.
Numbers alone don’t count. During World War II, Germany could have conquered Russia if it didn’t have to fight the powerful US in the west. That’s the reason Putin might accept the plan. Without the US in Europe, Putin might think he can conquer Europe.
The US were in ww2 now?
Germany was already losing when the US entered the war
No. In December 1941 when the US entered the war after Hitler foolishly declared war on the US, Russia had simply stopped Germany outside of Moscow.
Germany was already in retreat
The alternate reality you inhabit is fascinating. Meanwhile, here’s what a book produced by US military has to say on the subject.
The fact that you’re historically illiterate explains why you have ideas that have no basis in reality. Maybe read a book for once in your life.
By 1944, Russia had fully recovered from the German invasion and was a powerful military. That was not the case in 1942. When Hitler launched his 1942 summer offensive, he had to keep units in the west to repel any invasion of France by the Western allies.
You can read the whole book, USSR was the main force fighting the nazis and did far more than all the allies combined. Your historical illiteracy is frankly an embarrassment.
I know that but the Western allies kept Hitler from concentrating his forces against Russia. Also, the West through Arctic convoys gave Russia supplies. Finally, it was the West which bombed Germany not Russia.
The reality is that US companies continued to work with the nazis well into the war. And as the book I linked explains in great detail, USSR would have won the war regardless. Your whole premise here is nonsense born out of sheer ignorance. Instead of making inane comments on here and wasting people’s time, go read a book and learn about the subject you’re attempting to debate.