Sorry for late reply.

I posted update elsewhere but here it is again

1. After some discussion with another fediverse developer, he recommended we move to sublinks library. I posted our tech plans here https://lemmy.world/comment/12922172. This will achieve a number of things - move db to postgres, deployment to docker/k8s, enable lemmy clients, make some security changes so our passwords are not exposed, this in turn will enable open sourcing and self hosting. This seems the best path forward.
2. We almost completed the move when we found out that sublinks library itself does not have federation implemented. I was told it will be picked up in 2025 but it is also being developer by volunteers, so the timeline is not certain. Since we almost finished move to sublinks, as soon as they have federation, we should be able to move very quickly since work on our side is mostly done. ========================

How are you planning to do this in the long run? Hand picking communities will be hard to scale I want to find the communities I like, and I’m not sure I’d like a curated feed like that.

Core idea is to create a frontend for simple users who do not want to learn about servers and navigation to use a product. So we are starting with curated feed, once we have traffic, we can add features for advanced users to let users pick any community from any server.

Instead, would you consider keeping the servers and instances but making them smaller in the UI? That way it’s not a distraction, but the information is still there. A lot of people mentioned it this time around. So we will show the instance name along with username i.e. change from /u/otter to /u/otter@lemmy.ca . This should be live before 2025. Hope this addresses your concern.

The problem the fediverse is tackling is centralization, not lack of open source. That’s what the comment was referring to. If the goal of this project is to be a one stop shop for all threadiverse content, you’re not going to find much support here.

Understood. Not everyone has to or will agree with what others are doing. I am trying something different. I am only asking for not enforcing undocumented rules too hard until we have some minimum traffic like let’s say 100 active users in a month (can be easily seen by who makes comments, Comments are federated). That should be reasonable to say “now you have some traction, do participate in community”

That’s totally ok, the fediverse has many projects like this in various stages of development. The concern expressed in this thread is less about what the project is doing now, and more about clarity on what the future plans are. For example: funding through donations instead of paid accounts, advertising, and user data a confirmation on what kind of federation it will have

It will have 2 way federation. As for funding, I am myself not sure, we have to try something different, whatever works. Again, while others may disagree, but are there rules on what not to do? What I see is that donation approach alone has not generated enough money for any server to be a real competitor. So are others free to try other things?

A few others have expressed concerns with attribution. So as suggested we will be changing username from /u/xyz to /u/xyz@domain.com . I hope that addresses your concern.

As you know, the comments are federated. Also, our development was blocked due to sublinks development being blocked. Also as I mentioned elsewhere we have 10 users with no posts, so users are missing out on exactly 0 posts. I am not having it both ways. At present we are sharing what we have (comments and 0 posts).

Also, we are working on making it better. I agree definition of fairness varies, but giving some time to new instances, especially the ones who are developing from scratch, is fairly reasonable. Let’s say average 1 comment a day (i.e. 30 comments a month) can be seen by everyone (as we are federating) and is a very basic ask without hurting any other instances in community.

Yes I am aware, that is why our progress has stopped. I was told they will pickup again in new year.

I just did not know about pyfedi, I will look into it. We have about 10 users in last month.

Thank you for your support. We will get there.

Yes this is easy to implement. While I do not fully agree because impersonation can still be done by using username Bytes0nBikes. I feel showing instance names adds complexity for the user and it does not fully address impersonation anyways.

But then again, even though I disagree, many people mentioned that lack of attribution bothers them. So I should take feedback and get this done. I hope this is what everyone meant and they will accept this as a solution.

This is rather easier to implement. I should be able to get this done rather quickly. I will try to do this before end of Dec.

I mean this library https://github.com/sublinks/sublinks-api

We have a handful of users. Their comments are being federated. They are not making any posts (because without federation there are no replies). Defederation will mean users cannot even comment and will have to abandon ClubsAll. A site being abandoned at this early stage usually means death of site, which I would like to avoid if possible.

This is based on what feels fair to you and not a documented rule. The issue is that everyone has their own version of what is fair - federate out, self hosted, open source, attribution, usernames shown in particular way, exemption (or no exemption) for smaller sites based on time or traffic and so on.

In any case, this is a goal we are working towards. As we discussed before, this will be done before ClubsAll has any meaningful traffic.

Thanks for replying. I am not sure what is the history or intentions of these instances, but we will certainly get there.

Sorry allow me to ask 2 followup questions. 1 Can you explain how do you see us monetizing? 2. For attribution, currently you can see which user made the post. Should I display the server name on the sidebar?

We have no traffic, so even if we had federation out, we would still generate nothing back. In other words, I am promising to implement federation out before our instance matters.

Thank you for responding. Here are my plans

1. After some discussion with another fediverse developer, he recommended we move to sublinks library. I posted our tech plans here https://lemmy.world/comment/12922172. This will achieve a number of things - move db to postgres, deployment to docker/k8s, enable lemmy clients, make some security changes so our passwords are not exposed, this in turn will enable open sourcing and self hosting. This seems the best path forward.
2. We almost completed the move when we found out that sublinks library itself does not have federation implemented. I was told it will be picked up in 2025 but it is also being developer by volunteers, so the timeline is not certain. Since we almost finished move to sublinks, as soon as they have federation, we should be able to move very quickly since work on our side is mostly done.

There is almost no traffic today, users are not missing out on any content. Since the timelines are not in my hands, my ask is for admins to give me benefit of doubt and be patient until I wait for sublinks federation implementation (or if clubsall have traffic in which case, users will be missing out on content. In that case, I will have to think of something else)

3. In the long run, idea is to have an simplified fediverse frontend that can realistically be a real open alternative to reddit.

Feel free to ask me anything else.

Thank you. I will read it in detail and try to understand how to fix it. I am hoping this is easier fix than implementing federation out, so maybe I can have someone do this sooner.

That is fair to say. We are not trying to have it both ways, just need time to get there. We started with moving to sublinks library. This seems to be the best path forward, but timelines got extended after we found out that federation out is also under development there as well.

Thank you for considering and responding. While I cannot change your mind, I can explain some of the strikes

1. This is not monetized platform, there is no way to pay me, no advertisements, no premium plans etc. I am guessing you are saying since it is not open source yet, it is monetized. That will change, we started working on changing architecture to use sublinks, but got stuck as sublinks itself is under development.
2. As soon as sublinks federation works, we will be able to adjust quickly. Without this I have only two choices - spend a lot of money or shut it down. I would like to avoid both if possible. Since there is no traffic, I am requesting the community to give us benefit of doubt.
3. The developer used various subdomains while trying to implement federation. As far as I know, the final subdomain was api.clubsall.com. My guess is that admins are blocking clubsall.com and not api.clubsall.com. If another subdomain is still active, please let me know.

Thank you, this is fair. I can explain subdomains. As far as I know, my developer used some subdomains while developing (and trying to understand and make federation working), but eventually settled on api.clubsall.com (he wasnt able to get clubsall.com working). So as of last few months, only domain being used should be api.clubsall.com. If that is not true, do bring that to my attention please.

The issue is that definition of “finish” varies person to person. This is why I am asking for a common set of fair rules we can agree on, so we can finish.

I just checked, the homepage of Clubsall shows content from !196@lemmy.blahaj.zone, while lemmy.blahaj.zone have you defederated: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, as “clubsall.com” is in the blocked instances. But if we look at the linked instances, there is now “api.clubsall.com” and “clubsall-api4.renchesterjramos.workers.dev”

This is because federation is fairly complex and we are new to this and do not fully understand. I really do not know why we are getting content from lemmy.blahaj.zone when they have blocked us. The content is coming from federation, so how is it being pushed to clubsall after blocking?

You are channeling the traffic from 44k monthly active users to your website without giving credit to the instances where the content is created. In our last discussion, you said “your site is small, so people just ignore it. Should it become more active, then users are probably going to call their admins to defederate.” ClubsAll has not grown. This time you are saying we are not attributing. It seems even you change mind on to what is fair.

My request stays the same, give us some breathing room until some traffic threshold. Is that fair?

Thanks for this. My worry is that other admins have different set of rules. Someone said clubsall should be open sourced, someone said clubsall should be self hostable, another person said, it should attribute posts and have canonical links. Unfortunately the admins do not seem to have common agreed set of rules that are fair. So no matter what we do, it seems we will be blocked. Can we have a viable alternative?

There was a discussion about having a common set of rules which had proposal which is different than yours. So I am requesting some breathing room exception based on traffic, so we can survive until we can develop more or there is a common set of rules agreed to. Would that be fair?

I am creator of ClubsAll, can you ELI5 this to me. What is attribution with canonical tags and how does that break SEO for others?

I am the creator of ClubsAll. Thank you for very well thought out and objective post. I am absolutely 110% hoping to create a better Fediverse alternative to lemmy.

While I am doing that, community support is highly appreciated. Thank you again.