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And how exactly do you plan to reach this high quality elite content without search engines?
ā[search term] redditā has been a top search since OpenAI decided to open the SEO bot floodgates.
And how exactly do you plan to reach this high quality elite content without search engines?
ā[search term] redditā has been a top search since OpenAI decided to open the SEO bot floodgates.
Didnāt they have some of the biggest house prices to income ratios? And wasnāt private tutoring out of control in there? And werenāt they fighting with almost every single neighbor they have?
Just because it is most of the time bullshit, it doesnāt mean that is not a thing ever. The āthink of the childrenā doesnāt imply that legit application of child-protection laws are not a thing.
Telegram is for example known for Russian military bloggers, which are, in fact, promoting terrorism.
So, instead of fixing the cesspool we just designate a place for them? Why not just going after the ones committing crimes and state that big public groups must have moderation for basic shit? (Like no death threats and that kind of āmoderationā, not a "I donāt like your opinions)
Alternatively: It is not (and generally not even encrypted) and he just happened to be in contempt.
Plenty of military-oriented and shady-business going in in there.
Thereās still the possibility that the authorities wanted to go after specific someones with a proper warrant and Durov blocked it. No country on earth goes for that.
Weāll get to know the charges soon enough.
Did you even consider that your formula doesnāt even work for 90% of people? 6 figure salaries are a US thing, everywhere else you get taxes to pay for irrelevant shit like health. Part of those taxes are for retirement. Those are not optional and scale with the salary from like 10% if youāre poor to like 70% if youāre rich.
At whatever age retirement is, you get a payout thatās (not linearly) proportional to how much you paid in taxes. Thatās the whole of Europe. Probably more complicated or anarchic elsewhere.
Even with a top 5% salary, youāre not going to pile up all that much.
The problem is not this scheme. Is that there are not enough young people to support the elderly.
Also a curiosity about Portugal: A lot of people are starting to lie about not having a degree when they do so that they can get shit jobs more easily. Too many degrees around. (Most people go to college, even if they fail)
An homicide is an homicide before the court case for it is done. Just because some words also have legal definitions it doesnāt mean that theyāre incorrectly used before the judge concluded them and the guilty party.
Maybe easier to visualise with assault. Assault happened from the moment the aggression happened, not from the moment the aggressor got convicted of it
Good luck convincing Israel to fold up because Iām pretty confident you arenāt going to convince Palestinians about that. Or are you advocating for some olā two speed citizenship?
Well, those massive parking lots are a thing because 100% of the attendance comes in a car.
It happens that in European cities, the majority of people go to those mega-events events by public transit or Taxi.
Are you going to put parking lots just to burn up space? If that was the case, then no need for asphalt, trees absorb sound better than asphalt.
Lisbonās big arena is in a fast to reach part of the city that is surrounded by a lot of stores and offices and basically no housing. Thatās the way to do it. Is a 3 minute walk away from the subway.
Freedom of movement never was and never will be a thing outside of countries with similar standings in economy and policy.
Thereās the obvious problem #1) People rushing to whoever maximizes their welfare. Thereās this fine reason why plenty of illegal economic migrants do not settle for some first-world country that accepts them and keep going until they hit something like Germany.
Then you have #2) Societies do not exist without a place and no society should be forced to accept people that undermines it. France is secular and yet it allowed in plenty of people that are not. Iām not saying you must be secular to exist; Iām saying that you should not be going to a society you fundamentally disagree with and much less start imposing. And yet we both know what would happen if borders were open.
You also have #3) rich people can just buy out the nicest places and chop chop people the fuck out. A state putting up some barriers severely slows this process (which is happening anyway)
A bunch more reasons like paperwork, criminal record, ecology, yadda yadda.
With this said, if you fulfil stuff, you should definitely be able to get wherever you want. Ethnicity, social status ou whatever made up stuff should not be roadblocks. Even if it takes a year or two of screening and some sort of integration procedure.
I did not argue they didnāt, I did argue that this was not a mob but a protest.
Did the cops approve the water things? They probably knew, just didnāt pronounce as they probably thought nobody would care much (theyāre Spanish cops, not world cops, their cultural bias is what is considered harmful by Spaniards and those donāt see water as a harm).
But if mob-things were to start happening (which could be the case if some tourist just started yelling something like āyou should be thankful that Iām spending my money hereā) cops would halt that pretty fast. I personally donāt see things escalating in any other way.
I think itās fair to say that football hooliganism is not unique to any particular place, and is a specific and unique problem
Yes, over-tourism and hooligans are disjoint problems. But if it is so cheap going to a place that you can just grab your fella drunkards and go you end up mixing them both inā¦weird ways.
Britain is not that rich anymore (and we arenāt in 2011 anymore), however, during peak crisis (when the IMF rescued Portugal and almost had to do the same with Spain) we couldnāt do much besides accepting anything that was bringing money, no matter how little. For some reason, the brits got used to to go to Algarve as ātheirā vaction spot, so much that this predates the tourist boom, and at this point in time they just straight up bought everything. You canāt say no when your country is near bankrupt.
The 2008 financial crisis was a major turning point for this massified tourism. The ālazy southern people that donāt want to workā had to accept any money that tourists could bring and accept any consequences. Partly due to this, thereās this culture that tourists are immune to everything. If you think that hooligans are bad in a place with functioning cops, imagine them in a place that, at most, says āplease donāt do thatā and lets you go, every single time. Even the Germans, which generally are strict rule followers, stop having any regard for simple laws.
That very same ālazy southern people that donāt want to workā stereotype also got many people considering the northern Europeans to be entitled assholes. Not individually. Thereās not all that much xenophobia when dealing with individuals 1:1, but when considering them as a group of people, thereās a lot of resentment. Germany, the UK and France being in crisis and facing the same problems we faced is giving some sweet sensation to a lot of people.
Thereās also the cultural idea that āwhen youāre not in your town, you behaveā, even internally. People from Oporto have the same prejudice towards Lisbon people. āThey come here and act like this is their place, chanting and whatever, twatsā goes Portuguese to Portuguese, no need to add foreigners for that attitude to be a thing.
Thereās enough context to everything to write quite a few books. Nothing in these interactions are as simple as āpeople are annoyed at competition in their markets so theyāre pointing water gunsā.
the local government for approving those businesses to set themselves up on that street
There was the time period I just described where the governments could not have a say towards that + tragedy of commons. Every local government wants to have āthe best behaved and richest touristsā so a race to the bottom it goes. Now it is a complete mess to fix the situation, especially since the Portuguese no longer own those places.
As a local government you canāt go against the majority of your people, and the majority of people in Algarve are Brits and French. They own entire regions. Years and years of this environment cause that. Even in the Lisbon region, plenty of tourists buy properties because āwow, such nice weather, everything cheapā, which they end up treating as investment because why wouldnāt them?
There was this particularly damning āgolden visaā scheme during the IMF days where youād get Portuguese citizenship and a myriad of rights if you invested 250k (?) in real estate. A whole lot of people started doing investment tourism due to that and theyāre totally capitalizing on that.
The way I see it, there are two major classes of tourist in here. The rich fellas which bought the entire property market, with the richest of them tanking our water supplies with their golf courts and lobbying against any changes. And the bingo-card tourist which sees ā50ā¬ on Ryanair, nice! Honey, letās go to Portugal, it is a place in Spain that has some pubs just like homeā. You have a few other classes like the guys that actually enjoy discovering cultures and whatnot, but my personal experience tells me that there arenāt all that many like that even though all of them will say that theyāre doing just that.
Now, none of this wall of text pointed at āfiring water at peopleā as a solution; it just pointed a good deal of the context why other solutions are near impossible. However, in a way dissimilar to Portugal, Catalonia actually is a powerhouse. They can actually just limit the amount of people going there and succeed that way. But 1) business travellers are barely distinguishable from tourists 2) Madrid is a pain.
The whole point is that this is a very hard to solve mess. Most people donāt know these details; they merely know that we have a ātoo many tourists; go awayā attitude; they could be halfway decent and just respect it, unless they have some particular interest in the country. Thereās a trivial way to distinguish. We actually love to see people trying to speak Portuguese; even if they utterly fail; because this is enough to distinguish them from the 99%. This is how desperate we are for people that actually value anything in Portugal but the pictures and weather.
That can trigger people.
I donāt consider ok to cause real panic to people. I also donāt quite imagine that to be a common thing and I imagine that the crowd to stop if anyone starts looking not ok. That crowd is not trying to harm people at all, theyāre trying to get mediatic attention to spread a message that they need to take less tourists. Thatās what the first image in the article is saying (in Catalan). It is not saying āno touristsā, it is asking for āreduction of tourismā.
With this said, literally anything can be a trigger. A guy with a megaphone can very well be a trigger.
What if itās not water?
The other fella I was arguing with said that acid attacks are a common thing in other parts of the world. I had zero clue. I also imagine that it would float this from ātotally not a crime, just an annoyanceā to āyouāre going to be locked behind barsā. Thatās what Iād wish if someone did that; it is obviously not ok to give pain and lifelong consequences to someone whoās maybe lacks consideration.
What if someone thinks itās a real gun (even for a second)?
Have you looked at the pictures in the article? I donāt quite think that people would confuse a crowd with those to be a crowd with guns. Nothing in the context matches out. Not the looks of people. Not the place because Iberia barely has guns.
If they come from a place where everything can be seen as a gun, they can vote for that not to be the case. We donāt need to stack up the considerations to appease literally every possible culture and cultural problem in the world. Zero people who in here are afraid of guns (except for the colonial fighters).
If youāre afraid of clowns, donāt visit the circus.
And if they make an attempt to leave from some risk/fear (real or perceived), they canāt, because they are surrounded.
That would be the case for any other protest. Is independent of the water thing.
Mobs can be scary. They also tend to be very predictable. If your senses tell you that you have been hearing āfuck touristsā for the last 5 minutes and that thereās a huge crowd coming in you direction, well, balance that our with your fear of crowds.
I think common sense would suggest that spraying people with water who are minding their own business
Iām not advocating for that being ok when devoid of context. Just like pointing a megaphone at some institution devoid of context will get you detained (we donāt do āUSāsā version of freedom here; a protest that is not properly communication beforehand is forbidden for public security reasons).
If we put up some context to it, weāre talking about targeting a demographic which does plenty of also-not-ok things. Does this mean that blind mobbism is ok? Nope. However, given that thereās zero enforcement on both sides, this mob attitude is in a way to balance things rather-harmlessly in this precarious sittuation.
If laws were to be thoroughly enforced, many tourists would also be in trouble (eg. for loud noise after dark) their prices would be substantially higher (as it is generally believed that thereās plenty of tax evasion and illegal properties in the sector). This means that the gov could definitely be doing things better and enforcing laws better. It is partially our fault because weāre used to live in a lax system (which was mostly ok until thisā¦).
threat of acid attacks
Talking to you was literally the first time Iāve heard of those. For some reason I donāt get, London is unsafe. I hear about knifes and all kinds of shit in there but I donāt see why thatās the case. In the Iberian peninsula it is quite rare for anyone to assault you that way, even in proper robberies.
Itās not relevant to my point, which is that itās not the fault of someone who goes to another country as a tourist.
As a tourist you are the one doing the decisions. The āletās pick this 50ā¬ Ryanair over that 300ā¬ whatever to a place thatās not massifiedā was a decision.
I would equally criticise assaulting end consumers as a form of climate protest. Would you not?
I advocate for lesser evils. In climate matters I think that forcing costumers to pay for externalities would do the trick. Albeit, plenty of people would argue that to be worse than getting sprayed with water. Suddenly that 50ā¬ flight becomes a 2500ā¬ flight and then local tourism becomes much more enticing.
Whatās YOUR suggestion?
If you put a flat tax, you harm business.
If you put a quota to it, youād have the business of pretending that travelers are business people instead of tourists.
If you limit hosting to hotels, youād get a tremendous market pressure for housing to go down to raise hotels (which is better than ālocal housingā for tourists as it is more efficient and doesnāt fuck up with neighbors).
If you limit the amount of properties that can do so, you guarantee that no local is ever able to go anywhere else in their own country without a friend lending a sofa.
If you simply spam enough properties such that everyone fits, whenever the economy goes bad (/Covid) the country goes snap bankrupt.
As you can probably imagine, living in a country that suffers from this, Iāve heard plenty of debate. Thereās no perfect solution and the solutions that seem to be the closest to good are basically gentrification.
Showing tourists that theyāre not welcome is probably one of the actions that causes the lesser amount of harm (both to locals, businesses and tourists) as basically most other measures ensure that the best thing most people would be able to afford would be a few towns away from home.
I assume your personal carbon footprint is 0 in that case.
It is negative. I was living a very modest job and fired myself to voluntarily work for the transportation sector (eg. find ways to make public transit more enticing). The things I started doing were good so I eventually got paid for them. The last time I touched a plane was in 2014, I donāt eat meat and I very rarely buy clothes. For some reason, society has this weird idea that following your conscience means living miserably.
āOh, but then how will I visit Mars 3 times a year?ā You do not. Traveling for leisure is not a god given right. I bet that most people have fairly nice towns not that far from home, and if they do not, why not vote locally to create nice towns locally? Architecture was a concept that was murdered in the 60ās but we can redo things with time.
The farthest Iāve went was literally Barcelona and my vacations start with the question āwhere can I get to by train in less than a day?ā. No government is forcing me not to be an asshole, I can behave without hard rules. This way, If I ever need to go toā¦ sayā¦ to Norway, for some researchers conference or whatever, I can take a plane, knowing that it pollutes a lot, yet without an heavy conscience because it is a one off, not the semestral dose of planes and poverty incentives.
And you can say āman, thatās just your opinionā, but the fact was that before massification people saw consideration for others as something important. They had different ideas of what was wrong or right, yet except for the odd asshat, people had the āIām not going to overfish this lake because other people might also want to fishā attitude. That opinion that ānot being considerate is not wrongā is just silly to my ears and is precisely what is fucking up the planet.
I did that because I enjoy Spanish culture
And yet thatās generally not the case. If I had to place a bet, a lot of people that come to Portugal donāt even know that it is not Spain. My parents work in the mail service and you have plenty of mail addressed like āLisbon, Spainā. They couldnāt give less of a fuck about the place, simply figured that it was cheap and checked travel bingo card on it.
Are there considerate tourists that actually do care for the place and want to be behaved? Plenty. But the ratios are completely fucked. If you talk to people that work in the tourism sector they will point out that they are very VERY tired of dealing with the asses. Whatās their percentage? I have zero clue and this is not something measurable, but I personally had plenty of encounters that didnāt quite go the way society should go.
Last year the pope came here and with him a lot of followers. The fuckers had free transportation passes and yet had to break transportation barriers and block off locals because they were all too busy chanting.
That was at the time of my last vacation. I got myself in a train to Spain to miss that and the majority of people I do know did equivalent trips. Thatās how saturated the environment is. Every time a big wave comes (pope, sportās event, Taylor Swift), we simply move away because the city is otherwise going to become unlivable.
Good thing I mentioned Taylor Swift because thatās a prime demo of tourism being an asshole factory. She came here a few months ago. She was mass attended by Americans. People figured tickets in Portugal to be cheaper than wherever they live so they just flew here. Fuck the environment or the Portuguese being able to attend anything where they live without having to pay a 300% premium, right?
That is a xenophobic attack. And you are currently advocating for it.
I advocate for whatever the utilitarian solution is and I do understand the concept of people having feelings when a loved one becomes homeless.
If sending a few hundred tourists to space makes live muuuuch more bearable for millions, then do it.
If having hundreds of locals annoyed makes the lives of millions of tourists great and that leaves the coffers full such that the locals can be compensated, then great.
It doesnāt always need to go against tourists. The problem with tourists is that the current balance is not utilitarian at all. Millions are being left without a country they call home in the name of some other millions being able to prop up their vacation ego. This is a big consequence in exchange for a small reward.
And Iām finding it a bit perplexing that you are simultaneously advocating for that while also talking about making decisions based on conscience.
As I stated, Iām an utilitarian. I advocate for whatever maximizes the global happiness, sustainability et all. Someone getting a miserable life requires a lot of people getting very very happy to balance.
A good part of my interference to āwater attacksā is because I donāt see myself getting any more fired up over them than I would over people chanting āgo awayā. The water part, for me, a someone without any PTSD, it like āehh, okā. Might not be for other people, but that was not the way I guessed it. I did not imagine a world with acid attacks nor did imagine getting someoneās ass to my face in public transit to be any less āassaultā than being sprayed with droplets of water. I reckon that is is simply my perception.
Random tweet I just came across: https://x.com/Scaife51/status/1811403266531471842?t=4fdIaowFfaHmYv77no51LQ
Thatās this place: https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/1e1c4ky/why_albufeira_is_a_british_colony/
Can you realistically believe that one can live in there without being anti-tourist? Thatās NOT a one off. Thatās a very common occurrence in the south coast (both Portugal and Spain). It is not a major city or anything like that. Every city down there is currently like that.
I think it is fair to let the local populations set what they consider to be fair or minor. In other comment thread (https://lemmy.world/comment/11138636) I actually bothered looking up the law and, I donāt think that this even considered in criminal law. At least in Portugal thereās no āassaultā and the equivalent doesnāt cover this ; Spain is probably the same.
In Japan it is minor to have a station officer force push you into a train. That could be someoneās trigger for past serious trauma.
This is hypothetical, but calling an invasion of personal space and consent a minor annoyance is like saying āoh itās just a little kiss, come on, give me a kissā. Sure, a kiss never killed anybody, but we can agree itās inappropriate to do so without consent right?
One of those is a sexual offense, the other is mostly speech. 5ml of water in the summer heat do not physically affect most people any more than a megaphone would, and this is where law gets muddy. Law doesnāt penalize sound waves (below 120db), farts or whatever things that happen without solid-to-solid contact, but the moment thereās some physical contact, no matter how light, some people in some jurisdictions go crazy.
If I touch you to grab your attention like āhey buddy, you lost thisā, Iām technically touching you and that could evoke some weird past trauma, but since the intent is not to cause harm I could never get hooked over that.
I conclude by saying political goals should be completed WITHOUT needing to do that.
Ideally, however neither your thread nor the other thread where Iām talking presented any example on how to solve this without causing bigger troubles. The āpeople in Barcelona are meanā stereotype is one of the least damaging things they can do to themselves. Quotas & such are terrible for several reasons and ofc that everyone argues that the individual is never responsible for anything they chose to do with their money.
Iām not muttering it. Itās literally assault.
The point I pointed is that the law draws a hard line but reality has no such hard lines. Some ok things fall beyond the line. Some not ok things fall outside. Some common sense helps with that but even thatās cultural.
As for āliterally assaultā; I can read Spanish but heavy legalese is not something I want to bother with reading. Iām simply assuming that it is not all that different from whatever the law is in here, across the border. You donāt have conventional āassaultā in Portuguese law, you have āoffenses to the physical integrityā, which can be āsimpleā, āaggravatedā or āby negligenceā. The first two assume intent to physically harm; the last one assumed that you had no intent but were terribly negligent and that led to someone being hurt. (Thats Artigo 143.Āŗ if youāre into Deepl-checking that)
So, I donāt even think that spraying people in water would constitute āassaultā. Maybe āharassmentā, you do have that in legalese; however I do believe that harassment needs to be targeted (like to a very finite group of people, not to hundreds of people).
Then you have ādisturbances to the public peaceā, but if that was to be enforced it would affect tourists waaaay more than protestors. This kind of law is generally not enforced in order to just let the tourists be drunk in the middle of the road however they want without facing consequences over it.
So, to begin with, I donāt think that anyone here is committing a crime. Your notion of what is a crime is totally up to your society; my society can have a totally different notion.
As a āfun factā, we recently got pseudo-nazis doing public speeches over āclaiming back Portugalā and telling everyone that looked tourist to fuck off. That was not only legal but protected and anyone that attempted to mess with these events would be the one committing a crime.
None of those consequences you listed are any individual touristās fault.
That kind of logic implies that nobody is responsible for pollution or lack of recycling but governments. You are obviously responsible for your actions. There might be some government shaping them but ideally your conscience would suffice.
For some things you need help from some entity because it is just too hard (like not rewarding companies that put lead in food; silly example but you get it) but simple things like āsave waterā, ārecycleā, ābe nice to whoever is nice to youā, ālet people exit transit before you go inā are pretty much left for consciousness.
You can decide your next vacation location based on consciousness or you can do so based on ego. āOh man, Barcelona is cheap and looks sexy in my travel curriculumā is a condemnable attitude.
If the government has failed to regulate these things thatās on them.
Like I already asked you plenty of times; how do you regulate that without plenty of side effects?
Travel tax? Youād be harming businesses as well.
Forbid local housing from being used? Already a limitation in place; but too late; not the licenses have already been issued. (PS: These are the license counts for inner Lisbon (emerald is regular housing used for tourists and blue is proper tourism estate): https://poligrafo.sapo.pt/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/4bcf1c68-a837-45ed-9f83-15c4ed12e549.png)
Have some mandatory prioritization of locals over foreigners? That would be xenophobic.
Dress it up however you want, you are advocating for indiscriminate xenophobic assault and harassment.
Iāve lived in both Portugal and Barcelona (for one month but it was a thing), in both cases before the tourism boom. The people in both places were everything but xenophobic; they both used to be very welcoming. The thing is not xenophobia as the attitude would be the exact same if the problem was to arise from the same country (if the numbers were enough).
You canāt simply become homeless and jobless while staying welcoming; esp when, not all but plenty of, tourists treat us as inferior. They consider us to have less rights than they do because āthey paidā. Thatās a real rhetoric you get to experience.
Have these two recent reddit posts (deepl them) as a first hand experience thatās not even trying to be xenophobic but cannot not be: Guy from Azores: https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/1dy6t3f/odeio_turistas/
Foreigner that was shocked at the fact that we look like a British colony: https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/1e1c4ky/why_albufeira_is_a_british_colony/
Roadblocking is not entrapping or touching (even with a toy)
Yes, they are not. One of them leads to annoyances, the other leads to people losing their jobs or missing their connections. Everything is a matter of cost-benefit. If a major annoyance once might do country-wide changes, then thatās maybe worth doing.
I would, at best, classify this as a minor annoyance. I understand this to be a largely cultural thing. I personally donāt care much if people interact with me that way. I wouldnāt even call it a rare thing; it happens a lot outside of protests.
that of surrounding/hounding/bothering individuals, as this can intimidate them
Thatāsā¦ the entire point? Those fellas want to create this idea that tourists are not welcome without actually harming them. Thatās precisely the goal. If thatās the idea you got out of this then the protest just worked.
and disrespect their consent/bodily autonomy
Ehhh, big meh. There are waaaaay worse experiences in that regard in a ātouristās lifeā. For example you have this āmandatory tourist thingā to do in Lisbon which is to ride the tram 28. You can hardly find an online picture of what it actually looks but it basically is equivalent to putting 15 clowns in a mini. The kind of crammed where people get troubles breathing. Barcelona has their equivalents as well.
Tourists arenāt supposed to feel their bodily autonomy harmed from this; they are supposed to feel that theyāre not welcome.
normalizing this stuff makes it easier for more hatful people to get away with it in the future
Of course that hate-twats will try to capitalize on every opportunity to erode freedoms, however, in my opinion, there are quuuuuuuuuuuuite a few steps between this particular event and that scenario.
Quite some southern cities even have this without the protests. It is very common for people to attach water misters to buildings. Those spray people passing them without asking for any consent. Just so happens that they feel great during the hot days.
Why exactly is this worse?
It is an optional feature that the majority of people will be using, making herd immunity for those who do not