Let me preface by saying, I would love to hear counter points and am fully open to the fact that I could be wrong and totally out of touch. I just want to have some dialogue around something thatās been bothering me in the fediverse.
More and more often I keep hearing people refer to ānormiesā. I think by referring to other people as ānormiesā, whether you intend to or not, you inadvertently gatekeep and create an exclusive environment rather than an inclusive one in the fediverse.
If I was not that familiar with the fediverse and decided to check it out and the first thing I read was a comment about ānormiesā, I would quite honestly be very put off. It totally has a negative connotation and doesnāt even encapsulate any one group. I just read a comment about someone grouping a racist uncle and funny friend into the same category of normie because they arenāt up to date on the fediverse or super tech savvy or whatever.
I donāt want to see any Meta bs in the fediverse. I barely want to see half of the stuff from Reddit in the fediverse. I donāt want to see the same echo chamber I do everywhere else.
I do want to see more users and more perspectives and a larger user base though. I want to see kindness and compassion. I want to talk to people about topics they are interested in. I want to have relevant discussions without it dissolving into some commentary on some unrelated hot topic thing.
I think calling people normies creates a more toxic, exclusive place which I personally came here to avoid.
Just my two cents! I know for most people using the term it isnāt meant to be malicious, but I think it comes off that way.
Love to hear all of your thoughts.
Orā¦
āNormieā shows a hint of self awareness that the people on this platform arenāt representative of the general public. Weāre a bunch of tech weirdos.
Weāre the āabnormiesā.
I guess thatās something I didnāt consider. I kind of feel like that is still creating an us vs them mentality thoughā¦
But thatās pretty much what a group of people is? The people who are inside the group and those that are outside. What is the problem with this?
I mean not get too far down that rabbit hole, but I would argue that we are all human beings first and we all belong to many different groups, not just one.
And I think youāre missing my point.
of course can groups overlap, and we are all humans but that doesnāt mean that group dynamics are a bad thing?
These arenāt actual group dynamics. In any way. Exclusion and āus vs themā is not a positive group dynamic. Do not promote it.
So youāre saying there are people who DO use ānormiesā and people that DONāT use ānormiesā. These are not two groups of people. Shit, I just joined this thread, so that makes ME one of YOU, and thereās OTHERS that arenāt here. Are WE the elitists? Or are THEY the ānormiesā? YOU said thereās no thereās no US or THEM, so EVERYONE is talking in this thread. ANYONE not in this thread must not exist because I know I exist, so YOU thread posters must exist, but wait, that makes ME an US and YOU a THEM.
(Iām not trying to be snarky, but this argument is exactly as nonsensical.)
Buddy, are you ok? You can define āgroupsā by literally anything. The existence of a delineation is not āgroup dynamics.ā Group dynamics is not the existence of a categorizational model. Group dynamics is the interaction between two groups. And the phrase used was āus vs themā and I will point out that āvsā has a very specific meaning.
What the fuck are you on about? You sound like someone on crack for their first time. I never said there was no us or them. I said thereās no reason to have us vs them. Iām not sure what part of reading comprehension you failed at, but you need to improve it.
This is absolutely not how you approaching communities. They literally said it creates an Us vs them mentality and you claim that as a positive? Groups are not about us vs them. At all. Nor is it how you build communities. Thatās how you create echo chambers and cliques and lead to your own downfall as a community.
The problem is that generalization exists.
Every person that ever met or talked to a person that is part of the non-ānormieā group does not want to associate with other people that might be in the same group. Iāve experienced it myself often enough even though I donāt consider myself far gone like the people that talk to every ānormieā in a condescending way, but they donāt know it.
I genuinely try to hide the fact that I have fun tinkering with my PC or programming because of that. Because I do not want people that are not tech affinitive to think āIām probably just a stuck-up assholeā.
Definitely elements of this resonate for me, but thatās why I think itās just silly. They are a needless way of creating division where there doesnāt need to be.
You just defined stereotyping and prejudice.
No no no, itās stereotyping and prejudice when OTHER people do it to US. WE should tell THEM that THEY are US, and by saying this to OURSELVES we have said it to THEM, so that WE know that THEY know, but now THEY are a THEM again.
YOU donāt get it. WE get it. YOU should all be like US where there is no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US, but thereis no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US, but thereis no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US, but thereis no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US.
Simple. See? You donāt? But, YOU must because there is noā¦
What? Iām assuming you are using your same failed understanding of another of my comments here. If you arenāt going to actually point out what you think is wrong, but instead try to illustrate it with nonsensical statements, I canāt honestly pinpoint where communication failed. Just try using basic logic next time if you feel so inclined to elucidate whatever point youāre trying to make.
Replied to above.
Thatās your loss, man. Personally, I donāt feel the need to associate with people who are condescending towards my hobbies.
The problem isnāt that that exists, itās when people decide that not being in the group is bad, and not just a casual state of being.
No reasonable person is implying that.
No reasonable person is implying that having different groups of people is a bad thing, either, and yet thatās what DmMacniel was inferring others were saying.
I didnāt imply that though? I simply stated that there is an inside of a group and an outside of a group. Also people can belong to several groups that may or may not overlap.
Itās neither good nor bad up until people think itās bad or good to be part of one specific group.
You missed to very key letters here. Hereās the original statement with the two key letters highlighted:
[ā¦]creating an us āvsā them mentality thoughā¦
Nobody that Iāve seen here has said that there is no āinā or āoutā vis a vis the group. The objection is over those two key letters.
Pretending there isnāt any condescension toward the ānormiesā when using the term is blatantly exhibiting the exact behavior the OP referenced. Itās not how inclusivity works in a community at all. It alienates anyone that isnāt already a part of it.
Why? Because I donāt expect a person whoās not entrenched in a specific hobby to understand the ins-and-outs of that hobby?
Itās not condescension. Itās setting reasonable expectations.
No of course itās reasonable that they wouldnāt understand the ins and outs. The op and commenter youāre replying to are talking about the connotation of the word, not the fact that a hobbyist understands their hobby.
Take the term Trekkie for example ā people who are into star trek can become Trekkies which symbolizes that theyāve joined a community. That term can be used to mean that two people both belong to a community (i.e., āweāre Trekkiesā) or it can be used to refer negatively to people in that community by those who arenāt in it (i.e., āTrekkies smell badā).
There are (at least) two things happening here that people are picking up on. One is that context matters, and the way that the term normie is often used is not a positive one. Iāve personally never seen anyone refer to themself proudly as a normie, have you? And the other is that weāre referring to normies, a group we ostensibly donāt belong to, as a homogeneous blob which is obviously not accurate.
I doubt anyoneās feelings are especially hurt if theyāre called a normie, but that doesnāt mean it isnāt a dismissive and usually negatively valenced term used to refer to a massive and diverse group of people.
To me, normie just signifies a person outside a given niche hobby.
Iām into having a Plex server in my basement. People not into that are normies in a conversation about having a Plex server. I donāt expect them to know how to setup QuickSync hardware encoding in a Plex Docker container.
I donāt like anime. To people who like anime, Iām the normie. I think Trunks is just a really cool Mastodon client. I only vaguely know itās also a Dragonball character. If you expect me to know more than this, youāre going to be disappointed.
Thereās no judgment involved.
I agree the way youāre using it doesnāt sound negative. But I donāt think thatās a representative use of this term. Take a look at the top few entries on urban dictionary, they donāt seem very judgement free to meā¦
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Normie
The point of this post is that even if you donāt mean it in the way that urban dictionary describes it, thatās how some people will interpret it.
I mean, read even just half the comments on just one page of comments here and you should see that itās extremely common to not use the word in the manner youāre stating. Weāre not talking about that nor is the poster.
Thereās a hint of elitism to it though, at least as itās commonly used.
I saw a comment the other day that referred to Instagram users as āpeople you wouldnāt want to associate yourself withā. I donāt know who these people think normal people are.
I think it is more self-deprecation than elitism as (in my image) normies tend to have more friends and healier relationship and hobbies.
I always hated the stereotype that Reddit was full of nothing but loser virgins trapped in their momās basement who had no friends and no chance of a fulfilling life.
I mean, sure there are a lot of people there (and here) that probably fit most, if not all of that stereotype, but the constant need to point out what losers we all are is problematic in so many ways. Namely that some of us do actually have friends, hobbies, and lives, but still can relate to the overall vibe of being a bit of a weirdo or a loner or whatever, but also it has a tendency to create this barrel of crabs type mental barrier where it just feels like the constant reminders of āif this is all I am, this is all I will ever beā keeps presenting itself. Itās tiring and is the reason why I always kept all the self-insulting subs like me_irl on my block list.
They probably donāt want to associate with ānormalā people because they revel in their āweirdā status.
Which, honestly, is kind of understandable and relatable. People are often mocked and reviled for sticking out, for being different. It makes a sad sort of sense that theyād lash out at those that represent that ānormalnessā that theyāre told theyāll never achieve.
I certainly donāt think itās healthy in the long term, but I can at least fathom the logic that got them there.
Tbh, it mostly sounds condescending. Like āthey are the normals, as opposed to us, we are the ones that see further than themā a lot of times.
Though I did have seen things that are clearly self-aware, mostly the āNORMIES OUT REEEEā-stuff. But there is definitely both.
Many of us are also not nuerotypical. Another word for typical is normal.
Many is not all. And by creating an us vs them mentality where Iām āusā for the most part, but not for the whole part, thereās situations where the need to choose is being presented. Itās gatekeeping for the sake of gatekeeping, and really isnāt part of a healthy community of people.
This is my thought. The OP leads me to believe that being ānormalā is considered bad
My perception in the early days of reddit was that the majority of users were also tech weirdos. So thereās thatā¦
I am a Fallout Ghoul
A slur always tells you more about the person who uses it than about the person theyāre referring to.
How about āI hate Terfsā? What does that make me?
TERF isnāt a slur, itās an accurate descriptor.
Terfs are trans exclusionary. Terfs are on the borders of feminist thought, making them radical (and not in the cool way).
They only want it to be a slur so they arenāt accurately described as what they are.
Actually I think it is quite a stretch to call them feminists in any way. 99% of the time they ally with the far right and many of their leaders advocate against things like contraception and healthcare for women
Thats more of the term being overused. Only a vanishing small number of people are terfs.
Fair point
Yeah but āRadicalāā¦ TERFS aināt radical, nor bodacious nor totally tubular dude!
Accept everyone, thatās the TMNT way!
Are they bossanova at least?
It makes you an awesome ally. š
Thereās a specific group of people who readily use the word āTERFā, and youāre clearly identifying yourself as in that group. However, Iāve seen folks use the word āTERFā to refer even to people who arenāt Fs at all, and certainly not RFs. JK Rowling may identify as a feminist, but sheās not a āradicalā anything. So yeah, I think using āTERFā does more clearly identify the position of the speaker than the person so described.
if terf isnāt a slur, Normie isnāt either. people seem to get irrationally upset about the word normal. normal is a well defined word, the same way cis is but it seems one group is fine with one whilst the other isnāt.
instead of focusing on labels and how much they upset you (I donāt mean who I am replying to), focus on understanding and respecting peopleās differences, regardless of terminology.
It really does say a lot when the dreaded other that they want to avoid is someone who is normal.
To be completely blunt about it, if someone uses ānormieā seriously, I expect they also think theyāre oppressed by age-of-consent laws and possibly also laws against rape. At the very least, they donāt own a TV because there arenāt enough lolis on basic cable.
Sucks that we have to deal with those types but I wouldnāt go so far lump them all like that. I feel like some of it might involve neurodivergent people who just donāt feel like they get the best of treatment out there. But just this elitism driven by terminally-online brain rot can get bad enough by itself, itās not a good mindset.
Aināt that the truth.
I have seen the word normie used in almost exclusively sarcastic or tongue in cheek contexts.
The internet has a way of taking things that are used sarcastically and removing every bit of irony. The Flat Earth Society, PCMR, and The Donald subreddit all started out as making fun of the people that are now 100% unironically part of very thriving (and toxic to differing levels) communities.
I think that will almost certainly happen to the word normie, if it hasnāt already.
Iāve only really seen it in two contexts. Mainly ādonāt scare the normiesā, which was largely the advice given to my larp communities to not freak out people in real life with their hobby stuff, and probably also applies to subcultures like furries and such. And secondarily as self-deprecating. Iām a Facebook meme group āNormie Has-Beensā tied to the page āStale Memes for Normie Has-Beensā, and itās certainly not people who consider themselves normal.
I guess thatās how itās used in recent years, but it was definitely 4chan speak in the past and it was definitely pejorative. I still associate it with channers and incels. I recognize that the term has ironically been taken over by the ānormiesā themselves but that inevitably happens to all memes and slang.
It feels a bit like the contemporary counterpoint to 1337, and more or less equally silly.
I have definitely seen it used outside of that. Again, I think the effects are largely unintentional but from an outsider looking in could be very off putting.
This post and many of the comments should make it abundantly clear folks have an entirely different experience with the word. Iām not sure what youāre trying to add to the conversation other than to try and claim everyone else doesnāt have valid concerns.
OP asked for my thoughts, I gave my thoughts. Iām sorry you think my experience invalidates yours.
Thoughts can still be provided in a useful fashion without trying to invalidate everyone elseās opinion.
Edit: I didnāt say your experience invalidated anything. Your choice of words did.
nah, youāre right
the term always gives me images of channer culture; like it reminds me when the internet as a whole thought that 4chan and its ilk were cool and elite for being shitty for ālulzā
it needs to be retired
Thatās where it came from. Back in the day when everyone on 4chan was some type of āfagā:
-Newfag - new users
-Oldfag - old users
-Normalfag - normally-adjusted human being not on teh interwebz, later became shortened to ānormieāDoesnāt ānormieā come from /b/? I donāt think I saw it used anywhere else until shitposting subs like /r/dankmemes started calling who donāt use memes correctly normies
Uh ā¦ I was in circles that used words like ānormsā and ānormalsā and, yes, ānormiesā before the Internet was a āthingā. SF fandom of the '70s was easily as nerdy and toxic as are any of todayās Internet circle jerks.
Sorry, Kiddies1, but very little of what you do is new. Sometimes the techniques are new (because technology happened) but humans have been human for, well, as long as humans have existed.
1 If youāre finding this word offensive, you might want to take a long, hard look at how you use words like the one that triggered this thread before the inevitable downvoting.
I heard usage of āNormieā way back on usenet long before 4chan even existed.
Yeah agreed. It was kinda funny 10 years ago, but I thought we wouldāve grown past it by now. Feels like needless gatekeeping
Right thatās the vibe I get too!
Like everything else context matters
I just see the term to mean the opposite of specialist, or someone who is passionate about the topic.
In internet terms, it generally means not a geek.
Itās a good distinction, because for geeks, internet is something inherently interesting on a technological and philosophical level. For, well, normies, itās just an appliance they donāt need to know much about.
Similarly if you go to a car show but donāt really know shit about cars other than they have 4 wheels, youāre a normie in that environment. Your requirements on what a car should be like, are fundamentally different from someone who likes to tweak and tinker.
I wish the term could just mean that without any negative connotations, because I donāt see anything wrong with that distinction.
Ed/add: Nobody can know everything about every topic, so everyone is a normie in some category. Usually without realising it. So thatās just it. Not necessarily an insult, and doesnāt even make much sense as one, I think.
I think lots of people who use ānormieā unironically are creating an us vs them mentality. Itās not malicious, itās often how they see the world. People who are āabnormalā are often othered in the world and pushed away. This is a way for others to take back being the āoutā group in a little way that makes you feel less out of place.
Iām guilty of it in other facets of my life.
Iāve never seen it used unironically, but maybe Iām in different communities.
To me it means ānot a computer dorkā. I always interpreted it as somewhat self-deprecating.
Yh, itās meant to be ironic.
Fucking normies, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
The whole āautistic screechingā thing kinda reinforces OPās point. Itās pretty mean.
It reinforces the point that the sort of person that calls other people normies might have mental issues and should not be taken seriously.
Yeah. I support the use of normies because itās saying āIāM the weirdo here, and nobody should be expected to know this shitā. The screeching is just annoying and disrespectful to everyone. Anyone who uses it is a child.
Normies just means people who arenāt in the in group and to me means we are the weird ones, exclusive group or have uncommon interests or knowledge.
It is important to be self aware that in the context of the fediverse and meme culture things you are use to are weird, different, and sometimes confusing. Perfect example has been the beans and the 3 day poop thing. Normal people donāt get and will think it is weird if they know nothing about the trend. Another example is I am a rock climber if I reference a jug or a sloper it means nothing to normies or people unaware of the lingo. So a jug joke isnāt something other people get
I think that context is really important. Iāve mostly seen this term used by neurodivergent people when expressing frustration with not being understood by the general populace. Also, these conversations were usually in spaces created by and for neurodivergent people, so the use of normie to indicate everyone else makes sense to me. In that context, it always comes across as kind of self-deprecating to me, an acknowledgement that the person speaking isnāt considered normal because of their condition.
Based on the context youāve described, Iām not surprised you donāt like the term. If that was were I first encountered it I wouldnāt like it either.
This is the exact context I primarily see it and use it in, also in LGBTQ+ spaces as well.
The same kind of uses as well, usually used to refer to straight people or people less versed in the queer culture and terminology.
Using it outside of those spaces is hella cringe though.
Iām with you on this one, in a vacuum I donāt really have a problem with the term ānormieā but here it is completely being used as gatekeeping.
This whole meta controversy has really caused some brain rot, a lot of people talk about this place as if itās better because it āgatekeepsā. They say they enjoy this place because it is niche and doesnāt have the ābelow room temperature IQ postersā (actual quote I saw)
I donāt like this attitude, I really donāt like it. It is way to common on the internet, especially for hobby communities to have this attitude.
Exactly, pushing people away is not how you grow a platform
Like, what happened to just downvoting low effort or low āqualityā posts? Do we have to pass IQ tests to allow users on Lemmy now?
Yuuup.
Or if you really care about not seeing āmass appeal social media contentā, like, just donāt join those communities???
Like the whole āitās better if those people arenāt on this platformā is so stupid when you consider the entire aspect of fragmentation going on for federated communitiesā¦
I disagree entirely.
Gatekeeping has a negative connotation to it, and it can be used negatively. But gatekeeping is also necessary if you want to maintain a good community.
The increase of ease of use of social media and internet at large, and making it available to the very general public is what caused social media to become a toxic waste dump of misinformation, low effort content and lack of critical thought.
The difference of quality of reddit between 10 years ago and today is absolutely staggering. Reddit is practically unusable outside of small communities.
The relative difficulty of using the internet acted as a natural gatekeeping mechanism to keep your racist uncle Bob and your antivax aunt Karen away. Now they can join by clicking a few buttons on their phone.
Since that no longer works, the communities need to take gatekeeping into their own hands. Otherwise, it can be overrun by people people who are just stupid, to be frank.
Hmm. I think youāre right to an extent. I think the gatekeeping youāre talking about should come from the server level and block anything from meta or from other servers with those kinds of people.
Using the word ānormieā can be off putting to people we do want on this platform which is kind of my point.
(TLDR: if you only read one thing make it so its the last paragraph, it is the main argument anyways the first part was more of the rationale behind it)
I disagree with your notion. Although I feel there are two meanings for gatekeeping clashing. First there is gatekeeping in a traditional sense, which is filtering. As in you need to meet certain requirements, be it that your post sticks to the rules, moderation would technically be gatekeeping here as it rejects the content made by the people who dont adhere to what the community has determined. In this sense it is good
Then there is the āurbanā meaning of the world (not sure if that is the word in english for popular use of words) where here in the internet gatekeeping is more referred to keeping something āpureā by excluding people out, or for keeping a sense of elitism. I feel almost all fandoms went through this phase during the early 2010s late 2000s, just as an example if you ever said you liked anime but had only watched shÅnen you would have been mocked by every single person on the forum. Gaming communities have also been incredibly toxic in this regards, need I remind you of the entire GamerGate eraā¦
Sure this two meanings can conflate, but by dividing I can explain why I am opposed to the second attitude while not minding the first. The gatekeeping by the communities, which is necessary as you say to keep good communities is certainly good. Of course we need moderation and rules to make communities work, even really heavy moderation and exclusions can be good as long as they are rational and serve a particular purpose like what r/askhistorias did by removing 99% of comments.
But the attitude of āthings are better now because you have to be really smart to be hereā is a stupid elitist notion, change it a bit and its the same argument that has been used to gatekeep hobbies so strongly instead of fostering someoneās interest in a thing into something better. Here what we need is not to ākeep those people outā but instead we need to embrace them and push them to make better content. Simple as, we designate the rules and we create the content that becomes the standard. Communities are far better shaped by setting a standard of appropriate conduct that people who are joining replicate instead of outright denying some people because they are ānormiesā that will ruin things for us.
Donāt confuse community and platform. Fediverse is meant to be diverse by nature. You can gatekeep a server I suppose, but be careful with how ridiculously vague many people define the term here and youāre ready to ban those people. Treating everyone in a made up group as if theyāre all the same is not a behavior you want to get in the habit of.
Yes, that is exactly how I feel! It honestly makes me kind of sad because I truly love how awesome of a space a lot of these communities are and I think people donāt realize the effect that words and attitudes like that have on the greater experience and vibe.
If anything has become clear over the years is that IQ has no correlation with saying smart or sensible things. There are very smart people out there that keep posting stupid things.
Itās almost as if IQ measures nothing but your ability to write IQ tests.
Almost.
Iāve always assumed that people who use ānormieā in their language are probably teenagers with superiority complex.
āNormieā is one of the few words that I cringe over everytime I read it. I consider myself to be in, or adjacent to, the group of people that would use that word, since I am tech affinitive and that group is usually the one that uses it. But I cringe everytime I see it used unironically because I donāt want non-tech affinitive (or lesser affinitive) people to lump every person that has something to do with IT or similar into the group of people they donāt want nothing to do with because theyāre always condescending towards them.
Itās literally like as if youāre saying āDid you know that I have an IQ of 150?ā.
Youāre not gatekeeping anyone out of your life by using that word, youāre gatekeeping yourself out of every ānormalā persons life by using that word.
This makes a lot of sense! And I would argue if you just met me you would 1000% put me in the normie category. Buuut if you got to know me you would come to find out Iām a goofy uber nerd who works with a bunch of software engineers and loves technology and gaming and reading scientific journals on particle physics.
I quite frankly donāt want to be in either group because the entire concept of normie vs not normie is kind of silly in my opinion.
I 100% agree that word is cringe and Iām totally into the fediverse for the long haul, but we have to address the pachyderm in the room: The word āFediverseā is just as cringe.
I, ā¦ Iām sorry. I can read it in a document, but the second a human being types it, I canāt take it seriously. I donāt care if folks want to shorten it to something like the FI (Federated Instances). Yes, there are other uses of the word āfederateā, but it immediately sounds like a federal intraweb domain or a group of Star Trek policy makers.
āFediverseā is ānetizen 2.0.ā
āFediverseā is ācruising on the information superhighway Pro.ā
Please tell me Iām not alone in thinking this.Youāre not alone, no. āFediverseā is almost, but not quite, as silly a term as āMetaverseā.
I really dislike that term, it makes me cringe to be considered part of a group that uses it unironically. Thatās 4chan speech, letās keep it in that cesspool.
The cycle of social tech becoming mainstream and conversational norms being dragged down to a least common denominator predates modern social media. The earliest example I can think of is Usenet (newsgroups):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
During the 1980s and early 1990s, Usenet and the Internet were generally the domain of dedicated computer professionals and hobbyists; new users joined slowly, in small numbers, and observed and learned the social conventions of online interaction without having much of an impact on the experienced users. The only exception to this was September of every year, when large numbers of first-year college students gained access to the Internet and Usenet through their universities. These large groups of new users who had not yet learned online etiquette created a nuisance for the experienced users, who came to dread September every year. Once ISPs like AOL made Internet access widely available for home users, a continuous influx of new users began, which continued through to 2015 according to Jason Koebler, making it feel like it is always āSeptemberā to the more experienced users.
Itās the same cycle. Social tech starts off being used by a smaller number of technically inclined people. Communities are smaller and normalized civility is more commonplace. Peer pressure holds people to those norms. Once a social tech balloons from mainstream interest, the norms (or zeitgeist if you prefer) shift toward the incoming population because they outnumber the early population and exert more peer pressure. The new norms become a compromise between the norms of the incoming mob and what the community moderators are willing/able to enforce.
Itās tempting to put a label on the incoming demographic and use it in a derogatory way, but removing the label from the equation doesnāt change the source of unhappiness; the memory of what once was and the knowledge that it canāt last when cultural dilution sets in.
(no, Iām not providing any solutions to the problem, this is just rambling that might provide more insightful people with a starting point)
