AI singer-songwriter ā€˜Anna Indianaā€™ debuted her first single ā€˜Betrayed by this Townā€™ on X, formerly Twitterā€”and listeners were not too impressed.

  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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    11 months ago

    The human imagination also involves the phenomenal experience. You do not just record the data coming at you and regurgitate it, you experience it and then your experience further changes the data itself. We call this ā€œsubjectivityā€ and itā€™s where creativity comes from.

    I am not saying that machine creativity is impossible. What Iā€™m saying is these LLMs are not creative because they donā€™t even know what theyā€™re doing and they donā€™t even know ā€œtheyā€ are doing it. Thereā€™s no ā€œthereā€ there. No more creative than rolling dice.

    • PupBiru@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      and experience is ongoing learning, so if an LLM were training on things after the pretraining period then thatā€™d allow it to be creative in your definition?

      but in that case, whatā€™s the difference between doing that all at once, and doing it over a period of time?

      experience is just tweaking your neurons to make new/different connections

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        11 months ago

        Experience is ongoing learning through the subjective self. When you experience the color red you do not just record it with your photoreceptors, and your experience of the color red is different from mine because we donā€™t just record wavelengths of light. We donā€™t just continue to learn from continual exposure to new data, we also continue to learn from generating our own data. In this way our subjective experience is qualitative, not simply quantitative. I donā€™t just see the specific light wavelengths, I experience the ā€œrednessā€ of red.

        When LLM is trained on that kind of data it just starts to hallucinate. This is promising! I think the hallucination phenomenon is actually a precursor to creativity and gives us great insights into the nature of subjective experience. In a sense, my phenomenal experience of the color red is actually much like a hallucination where I am also able to experience the colorā€™s ā€œwarmthā€ and ā€œboldnessā€. Subjectivity.

        • PupBiru@kbin.social
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          11 months ago

          itā€™s only qualitative because we donā€™t understand it

          when an LLM ā€œexperiencesā€ new data via training, thatā€™s subjective too: it works its way through the network in a manner thatā€™s different depending on what came before itā€¦ if different training data came before it, the network would look differently and the data would change the network as a whole in a different way

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            11 months ago

            When an LLM feeds on its own outputs, though, it quickly starts to hallucinate. I think this is actually closer to creativity, but it betrays the fundamental flaw behind the technology - it does not think about its own thoughts and requires a curator to help it create.

            Iā€™ll believe something is an AI when it can be its own curator and not drive itself insane.

            • PupBiru@kbin.social
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              11 months ago

              thatā€™s a lack of understanding of concepts though, rather than a lack of creativityā€¦ curation requires that you understand the concept that youā€™re trying to curate: this looks more like a dog than this; this is a more attractive sunset than this

              current LLMs and ML donā€™t understand concepts, which is their main issue

              id argue that it kind of does ā€œthink about its own thoughtsā€ to some degree: modern ML is layered, and each layer of the net feeds into the nextā€¦ one layer of the net ā€œthinks aboutā€ the ā€œthoughtsā€ of the previous layer. now, it doesnā€™t do this as a whole but neither do we: memories and neural connections are lossy; heck even creating a creative work isnā€™t going to turn out exactly like you thought it in your head (your muscle memory and skill level will effect the translation from brain to paper/canvas/screen)

              but even we hallucinate in the same way. donā€™t look at a bike, and then try and draw a bikeā€¦ youā€™ll get general things like pedals, wheels, seat, handlebars, but itā€™ll be all connected wrong. this is a common example people use to show how our brains arenā€™t as precise and we might like to thinkā€¦ drawing a bike requires a lot of very specific things to be in very specific places and thatā€™s not how our brain remembers the concept of ā€œbikeā€

              • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                11 months ago

                current LLMs and ML donā€™t understand concepts, which is their main issue

                This is a relevant issue to the question!

                If I take a dose of LSD and paint the colors I hallucinate, is that creative? Iā€™d argue itā€™s not.

                Only when I, the subjective self, curate my own thoughts and sensations can I engage in a creative process. I can think about my own thoughts without going insane (how do the colors make me feel, what do the colors mean?) and thatā€™s a fundamental part of creativity and intelligence. Conceptualization is key to subjectivity.

                I donā€™t think this is far off. I just donā€™t think weā€™re there, either, and we should be skeptical of marketing hype.

                • PupBiru@kbin.social
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                  11 months ago

                  i donā€™t agree with that definition of creativeā€¦ thereā€™s lots of engineering work thatā€™s creative: writing code and designing systems can be a very creative process, but doesnā€™t involve feelingā€¦ itā€™s problem solving, and thats a creative process. youā€™re narrowly defining creativity as artistic expression of emotion, however thereā€™s lots of ways to be creative

                  now, i think thats a bit of a strawman (so iā€™ll elaborate on the broader point), but i think its important to define terms

                  i agree we should be skeptical of marketing hype for sure: the type of creativity that i believe ML is currently capable of is directionless. it doesnā€™t understand what itā€™s creatingā€¦ but the truth lies somewhere in the middle

                  ML is definitively creating something new that didnā€™t exist before (in fact iā€™d say that its trouble with hallucinations of language are a good example of that: it certainly didnā€™t copy those characters/words from anywhere!)ā€¦ this fits the easiest definition of creative: marked by the ability or power to create

                  the far more difficult definition is: having the quality of something created rather than imitated

                  the key here being ā€œrather than imitatedā€ which is a really hard thing to prove, even for humans! which is why our copyright laws basically say that if you have evidence that you created something first, you pretty much win: we donā€™t really try to decide whether something was created or imitated

                  with things like transformative works or things that are similar, itā€™s a bit more of a grey areaā€¦ but the argument isnā€™t about whether something is an imitation; rather itā€™s argued about how different the work is from the original

    • Zorque@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      The same could be said of a lot of creatives. You speak of greater creativity, that which evokes depth and gravity. There is still more shallow creativity. Learning creativity. That which you do before you learn to do better. Kind of what these are doing.

      Iā€™m not saying itā€™s good or bad, though the people who hold the reigns definitely donā€™t have the best intentions for their use, but underestimating it is the first step to allowing them to run rampant.

      ā€œNever attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidityā€ is the slogan of those who do nothing but look down on othersā€¦ who underestimate the horrible things the ā€œstupidā€ can do. Donā€™t assume stupidity just because you donā€™t like something. It makes it that much easier for it to bite you on the ass in the future.

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        11 months ago

        I donā€™t think Iā€™d actually call that shallow thought ā€œcreativityā€.

        Think of a word association game. I donā€™t think the first word that pops up in my head is creative at all, itā€™s just a thoughtless reaction.

        Thatā€™s what LLMs are doing. Without that reflection and depth itā€™s just a direct input->output