- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@kbin.social
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@kbin.social
Pope Francis, in his strongest comments since the start of the conflict in Gaza, on Wednesday called for the release of all hostages taken by Hamas militants and said Israel has a right to defend itself.
Speaking in a sombre voice at the end of his weekly general audience to thousands of people in St. Peter’s Square, he also expressed grave concern over Israel’s siege imposed on Gaza.
“I continue to follow, with pain and apprehension, what is happening in Israel and Palestine. So many people killed, and others wounded. I pray for those families who saw a feast day turn into a day of mourning, and I ask that the hostages be immediately released,” he said.
“It is the right of those who are attacked to defend themselves, but I am very worried by the total siege in which Palestinians live in Gaza, where there have also been many innocent victims,” he said.
On Saturday, Hamas gunmen from the Gaza Strip rampaged through parts of southern Israel, in the deadliest Palestinian militant attack in Israel’s history.
Israel’s military said the death toll in Israel had reached 1,200 by Wednesday and more than 2,700 people had been wounded.
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It’s not a question of rights to self defense. Do they have the right to counterattack and kill people that were not involved in the fighting, in response to similar actions against them?
Counterattacking is not defense, though. It’s attack.
edit: Thinking about this further, I would classify defense as any activity that degrades an attackers ability to hurt you. If someone throws a punch at you and you break their arm, they can no longer hurt you with that arm. Your “attack” was a form of “defense”.
However, when your attack does nothing to degrade the enemy’s ability to hurt you, is it defense? I would argue no. It’s something else, perhaps revenge. Which is not defense.
Someday they’re going to put 2 and 2 together and realize that they have created an enemy factory inside their borders, and that enemy factory is surrounded by other countries that will keep supplying it with weapons. Right now they’re in Gaza slaughtering hundreds and galvanizing millions against them.
Perfect political scenario for fascism. A constant, ever-present, enemy to use and consolidate power.
Yeah that’s why they allow hamas to exist. You think a country with a multi billion dollar military industry can’t successfully keep tabs on a few hundred thousand at most?
No, they allow it to happen so they have an existential enemy. Obliterate Palestine and dissonance the few remaining and suddenly then all these displaced perks are creating cells in other countries so now the enemy is any Islamic person.
That’s the difference between self defense and an eye for an eye.
If they punch you and you break their arm and run away, that’s a slam dunk case of self defense.
If they punch you and you kill their mother, well…
Unfortunately considering the long history of the conflict and the obscene hostility on both fronts (they probably have good reasons to be fair), the second scenario seems more likely and that concerns me. And I don’t think the result of this helps anyone.
It’s geopolitical virtue signaling
I don’t think so. I think it’s more people not thinking very deeply in the heat of the moment. Most people don’t think technically, that takes training and most people lack training. I certainly wouldn’t expect a Pope to have some, or a President, usually.
When one army fights another army, they both wear uniforms that identify them as combatants. It is clear who is fighting for one side or another.
When one army fights a terrorist organization, only one side wears uniforms, and the other side pretends that they are civilians. It is far more complicated to figure out who is from the terrorist organization.
Yes, as an American I am intimately familiar with this idea. We did just get out from occupying two countries in the past two decades.
One of the lessons we learned is that it is a mistake to think you can actually destroy a terrorist organization with military force in any kind of reasonable way. It is not a possible goal, and attempting it will make your problems worse.
Terrorist orgs don’t die. They just shapeshift and come back.
Ah, yes. Just like Jesus said… “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn their house into fucking rubble.”
I don’t think they’re going to listen to him
They aren’t the audience and neither are we. A virtue unsignalled is a virtue wasted where the pope is concerned.
The part right after OP stopped quoting:
The pope’s mention of Israel’s right to self defence followed diplomatic pressure from Israel for him to make such a statement, following earlier statements from the pope and Vatican officials which Israel saw as too timid.
Israel’s ambassador to the Vatican, Raphael Schutz, told Reuters on the sidelines of a conference in Rome on Monday: “I understand the Vatican wants peace. We all want peace. But I would like to hear stronger words about Israel’s right to defend itself.”
This is the best summary I could come up with:
VATICAN CITY, Oct 11 (Reuters) - Pope Francis, in his strongest comments since the start of the conflict in Gaza, on Wednesday called for the release of all hostages taken by Hamas militants and said Israel has a right to defend itself.
Speaking in a sombre voice at the end of his weekly general audience to thousands of people in St. Peter’s Square, he also expressed grave concern over Israel’s siege imposed on Gaza.
"I continue to follow, with pain and apprehension, what is happening in Israel and Palestine.
“It is the right of those who are attacked to defend themselves, but I am very worried by the total siege in which Palestinians live in Gaza, where there have also been many innocent victims,” he said.
In his comments on Wednesday, the pope said “Terrorism and extremism do not help reach a solution to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians but fuel hatred, violence, revenge and cause suffering for both sides”.
Gaza’s health ministry said at least 950 people have been killed and 5,000 injured in the crowded coastal enclave.
The original article contains 363 words, the summary contains 180 words. Saved 50%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Didn’t the Jews kill his god? Weird flex.
The Jews weren’t the ones known for crucifixion back in the day.
Wonder if there would ever be a reason for people to lie about that on a major scale to make certain people look bad…
Read the bible again. The Jews turned him over to the Romans.
The Bible isn’t a historical document, it’s a collection of fictional books. The stories about Jesus are contradictory, and we don’t even know for sure that he ever even existed.
So no, I’m not going to read the Bible for historical facts.
That. Was. My. Point. /s
That’s not the same as killing, now is it?
Wow, pedantry with an imaginary religion. Life changing discourse. Plastics and pesticides doing it’s thang.
ok boomer
Its actually a hot contested debate on who actually killed Jesus. In catholocism, the belief taught is that the sins of humanity collectively killed jesus. One is that jews of the time period, killed him, with no relation to modern jewish. Theres the romans killed jesus thought and much more.
They can’t even prove he existed. Best evidence is Josephus.
